Quoted from mikechristine1

OK, DV, if we have freedom OF religion, I want you to explain WHY YOU believe that the teachings of the Catholic religion, when it comes to abortion, MUST be FORCED upon those who do NOT have the same beliefs as Catholics have about conception, life, etc.   If people have freedom OF religion, then they DO have a choice to believe something different when it comes to a fertilized egg, isn't that correct?  

Explain WHY a non Catholic should be DENIED the freedom OF THEIR OWN RELIGION to make decisions about abortion based on their own religious beliefs.  

I believe it's life because, as a real man with a real wife, I know what we created, and I know the joys that you never will.   I do not need the Catholic church or any church, temple, mosque, conservative, liberal, dem, rep, atheist, etc, to tell me that Chris and I created a new life and that it was a life before it exited the birth canal (I know you don't know what that is).  

Cluck, cluck, cluck, DV will NOT address the imposed Catholic belief in the midst of his trying to claim we all have freedom OF religion

MC1 i think you are mixing apples and oranges here. It appears that the point is that Christians seem to be the ONLY religion that is being demonized. Christians have a right to their opinions, based on their religion or not....whether one agrees or not. I happen to be a Christian and am solidly against abortion and the killing of the innocent. And I'm NOT Catholic....yet I share their same views on abortion.

The way I see it......Catholics are voicing their free speech disdain regarding abortion. So what? Atheists are voicing their opposite opinions.

Your argument could be used on both sides. imho

Quoted from bumblethru

MC1 i think you are mixing apples and oranges here. It appears that the point is that Christians seem to be the ONLY religion that is being demonized. Christians have a right to their opinions, based on their religion or not....whether one agrees or not. I happen to be a Christian and am solidly against abortion and the killing of the innocent. And I'm NOT Catholic....yet I share their same views on abortion.

The way I see it......Catholics are voicing their free speech disdain regarding abortion. So what? Atheists are voicing their opposite opinions.

Your argument could be used on both sides. imho

I agree with your response.  

Furthermore, one does not have to be a Christian (or in my case a Roman Catholic Christian) or any other religion to agree that there are certain moral absolutes --  most of the items in the 10 Commandments (thou shall not, kill, thou shall not steal, etc) were generally and almost universally accepted .. regardless of religion.. for many centuries.   It has only been since the rise of secular humanism that moral absolutes were thrown out for a "whatever makes you feel good" approach to morality.

I have always had great respect for people of other denominations and faith/religious traditions -- and would be the last one to force anyone to believe what I believe.   I strongly believe that every person can benefit from being open to and learning the religious beliefs of others.  It is so sad that secular humanists and moral relativists have been allowed to drive religion from the marketplace, the halls of government and from our schools.    Let our children read the Bible, the Koran and any other Sacred Writings .. and then engage in frank and honest discussions about the contents.  

America is failing because the Neo-Liberals don't want anyone to believe in anything --- and as a great presbyterian minister, who served as Chaplain to the US Senate once said "if you don't believe in something, you will fall for anything".

Jewish law on abortion is much different than Christian law. There are openly permissible areas where abortion is not only allowed, but may even be encouraged--example: fetus with Tay Sachs. There are a lot of situations within Jewish law that allows for abortion.

Pro Choice!

The Episcopal Church
The Episcopal Church in the United States of America has taken a pro-choice stand and has
passed resolutions at its triannual General Convention that supports abortion rights, but believes it
should be used "only in extreme scenarios." The church opposes any government action that limits
abortion rights, including parental notification. The ECUSA also condemns violence against abortion
clinics

Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America maintains a pro-choice position for fetuses that
are aborted before viability outside of the womb.


American Presbyterian and Reformed Churches
The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) generally takes a pro-choice stance. The Presbyterian
Church (U.S.A.) believes that the choice to receive an elective abortion can be "morally acceptable;"
however, the denomination does not condone late abortions where the fetus is viable and the
mother's life is not in danger. Other Presbyterian denominations such as the Orthodox Presbyterian
Church[60] and the Presbyterian Church in America are pro-life. Most Reformed churches,
including both the Reformed Church in America and the Christian Reformed Church in North America are pro-life.

Quakers (The Religious Society of Friends)
The Religious Society of Friends generally avoids taking a stance on controversial issues such as
abortion; however, in the 1970s the American Friends Service Committee advocated for
abortion rights

2011, the Guttmacher Institute reported that two out of three women having abortions in the
U.S. identified as Christian. The same report said that of all U.S. abortions, 37% were undertaken
by women who identified as Protestant, and 28% were Catholic. The number of abortions
performed on U.S. Catholic women is about the same per capita as the average in the general
U.S. population; in the 2000s, Catholic women were 29% more likely to have an abortion than
Protestant women. A 1996 study found that one out of five U.S. abortions was performed
on a woman who was born-again or evangelical Christian

It is a fundamental belief/value in Christianity that EVERY human life has dignity and is endowed with God-given rights among which the most essential is the Right to Life.  The fact that the earthly leadership of certain denominations have chosen to thumb their noses at this core belief/value says a lot about their own weakness and willingness to give into the evil temptations of this world.  
Fortunately, God's Law is unchanging on this issue and those who choose to remain faithful to that Law have the assurance that inevitably GOD WILL TRIUMPH OVER EVIL.

Quoted from DemocraticVoiceOfReason

It is a fundamental belief/value in Christianity that EVERY human life has dignity and is endowed with God-given rights among which the most essential is the Right to Life.  The fact that the earthly leadership of certain denominations have chosen to thumb their noses at this core belief/value says a lot about their own weakness and willingness to give into the evil temptations of this world.  
Fortunately, God's Law is unchanging on this issue and those who choose to remain faithful to that Law have the assurance that inevitably GOD WILL TRIUMPH OVER EVIL.

Read the below post carefully... It contains the entire collection of words spoken
by Jesus Christ on his views against abortion:

Quoted Text

Quoted from DemocraticVoiceOfReason

It is a fundamental belief/value in Christianity that EVERY human life has dignity and is endowed with God-given rights among which the most essential is the Right to Life.  The fact that the earthly leadership of certain denominations have chosen to thumb their noses at this core belief/value says a lot about their own weakness and willingness to give into the evil temptations of this world.  
Fortunately, God's Law is unchanging on this issue and those who choose to remain faithful to that Law have the assurance that inevitably GOD WILL TRIUMPH OVER EVIL.

Or so is your interpretation of God's law...obviously not every denomination agrees that life begins at conception...either way these are recognized religions and based on your own arguments they should be able to voice their opinions and live their lives based on those religious beliefs. If they have to abide by only the Catholic version of Christanity or God then that's really not having religious freedom now is it?

Quoted from Parent

Or so is your interpretation of God's law...obviously not every denomination agrees that life begins at conception...either way these are recognized religions and based on your own arguments they should be able to voice their opinions and live their lives based on those religious beliefs. If they have to abide by only the Catholic version of Christanity or God then that's really not having religious freedom now is it?

Regardless of religious feelings on the issue of abortion, the majority of voters approve of the right to abort.

Most aborted American fetuses are from Christian parents.

This is a failure of the church, not a legal issue.

The law doesn't cause abortions.

Bad family values does.

The law simply enforces the will of the majority of voters, and their right to run their own, crappy values lifestyle.

Quoted from Parent

Or so is your interpretation of God's law...obviously not every denomination agrees that life begins at conception...either way these are recognized religions and based on your own arguments they should be able to voice their opinions and live their lives based on those religious beliefs. If they have to abide by only the Catholic version of Christanity or God then that's really not having religious freedom now is it?

Your argument is flawed:
#1) It is not just the Catholic version of Christianity that says that the killing of a human life is wrong.  There are MANY non-Catholics who share the same Pro-Life views in America.

#2) Expressing the Pro-Life point of view and working to see that Pro-Life legislation is passed is no way stopping opponents from voicing their point of view.   In fact, the record shows that the Pro-Death side of the issue has been the one attempting to silence the Pro-Lifers not the other way around.

#3)  Ultimately, Catholics and others who are Pro-Life have EVERY RIGHT to vote for legislators and executives who will support and vote for Pro-Life legislation and appoint judges who will uphold those laws once past -- and oppose those who legislators and executives.   The Pro-Deathers have been exercising that right for years ... one does not give up their constitutional rights just because they are Catholic or Pro-Life or because they take a position that is not approved by the Neo-Leftists and Hollywood-Media Elite.

I'm simply showing you that this issue is not a moral absolute as you stated previously. That there are plenty of religious beliefs even within the Christian faith where the definition of what constitutes life is not the same as your belief or the Catholic churches. You state you would never want to force someone to believe what you believe, but it seems thatyou want everyone to believe what your religion believes is the definition of when life begins. You said that religion hasbeen driven out of the marketace yet when you are presented with differing religious views you still resort to a place where you believe only your views should be enforced for the entire country.

Quoted from Parent

I'm simply showing you that this issue is not a moral absolute as you stated previously. That there are plenty of religious beliefs even within the Christian faith where the definition of what constitutes life is not the same as your belief or the Catholic churches. You state you would never want to force someone to believe what you believe, but it seems thatyou want everyone to believe what your religion believes is the definition of when life begins. You said that religion hasbeen driven out of the marketace yet when you are presented with differing religious views you still resort to a place where you believe only your views should be enforced for the entire country.

If you believe it is a representative democracy(I don't), then your representatives personal beliefs will follow him/her to Washington DC and legislate based on his/her beliefs which most likely reflect his/her constituents.

I agree, personal religious views should not be FORCED onto the entire country, just like secular views should not be FORCED onto the entire country.  

I'm curious, what gives the secularist more rights to bring their personal beliefs to Washington DC and force their beliefs onto the entire country, and Christians cannot?

Quoted from DemocraticVoiceOfReason

I agree with your response.  

Furthermore, one does not have to be a Christian (or in my case a Roman Catholic Christian) or any other religion to agree that there are certain moral absolutes --  most of the items in the 10 Commandments (thou shall not, kill, thou shall not steal, etc) were generally and almost universally accepted .. regardless of religion.. for many centuries.   It has only been since the rise of secular humanism that moral absolutes were thrown out for a "whatever makes you feel good" approach to morality.

I have always had great respect for people of other denominations and faith/religious traditions -- and would be the last one to force anyone to believe what I believe.   I strongly believe that every person can benefit from being open to and learning the religious beliefs of others.  It is so sad that secular humanists and moral relativists have been allowed to drive religion from the marketplace, the halls of government and from our schools.    Let our children read the Bible, the Koran and any other Sacred Writings .. and then engage in frank and honest discussions about the contents.  

America is failing because the Neo-Liberals don't want anyone to believe in anything --- and as a great presbyterian minister, who served as Chaplain to the US Senate once said "if you don't believe in something, you will fall for anything".

But DV, you FAIL to realize that other religions do NOT have the same beliefs about abortion as the Catholic church has.  True that INDIVIDUALS who are of different faiths--whether a branch of Christianity or now--share the same beliefs as the Catholic church with regard to abortion.   HOWEVER, their various religions do NOT tell them that abortion is killing, their religions to now teach that it is a life from the moment of conception.

So, DV answer the question, do you believe that the laws of the United States regarding abortion must be exclusively mirror teachings of the Roman Catholic Church which will then mean that the all people regardless of religion or lack of, will be mandated, forced to abide by the teachings of the Catholic Church when it comes to abortion?

Just answer that question?   Cluck cluck cluck?

Quoted from DemocraticVoiceOfReason

Your argument is flawed:
#1) It is not just the Catholic version of Christianity that says that the killing of a human life is wrong.  There are MANY non-Catholics who share the same Pro-Life views in America.

DV, many non-Catholics share the same pro-life views as Catholics, BUT, they share that view MERELY as PRIVATE INDIVIDUALS.

Here DV:   the Presbyterian church, the Methodist church, the Episcopal, Reformed, Pentecostal, Mormon, Jewish, Orthodox Jewish, Reformed Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Islamic, Uniterian, Lutherans, Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Adventist, Baptist, Shinto, Jehovah Witness, Quaker, etc. etc.

Please provide the links to official sites (comparable to the Vatican's site) of these various religions and where it shows that the OFFICIAL TEACHING of these various religions mirrors the Catholic Church teaching on abortion.

Now, when you find that you canNOT provide that, then I want you do answer the following question:   Do you believe that the beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church, with respect to abortion, MUST, by law, be imposed upon all Americans?

Speaking of Catholics...

American Bishop convicted of covering up clerical sex abuse refuses to resign

Quoted Text

Bishop Robert Finn has been sentenced to probation for failing to report a subordinate’s abuses,
but he refuses to resign

Pressure is mounting on the highest ranking US catholic official yet to be convicted of covering up clerical
child sex abuse to resign from the church.

Bishop Robert Finn was found guilty Friday of failing to report suspected child sexual abuse to authorities,
prompting calls for him to step down or be booted from office.

Advocates for the victims of clerical sex abuse have challenged the Vatican directly, calling on the
Pope to step in and dismiss Finn from his position as bishop of the diocese of Kansas City-Saint Joseph.

But despite a growing campaign to force his ouster, church officials have maintained that he isn’t
going anywhere – despite the conviction.

“The bishop looks forward to continuing to perform his duties, including carrying out the important
obligations placed on him by the court,” diocese spokesman Jack Smith said in a statement.

Quoted from Parent

I'm simply showing you that this issue is not a moral absolute as you stated previously. That there are plenty of religious beliefs even within the Christian faith where the definition of what constitutes life is not the same as your belief or the Catholic churches. You state you would never want to force someone to believe what you believe, but it seems thatyou want everyone to believe what your religion believes is the definition of when life begins. You said that religion hasbeen driven out of the marketace yet when you are presented with differing religious views you still resort to a place where you believe only your views should be enforced for the entire country.

You have fallen hook, line and sinker for the moral relativists philosophy -- that is that there is no such thing as moral absolutes and that morality is what each person "feels" it should be.  By your logic, it is ok to kill unborn babies because a majority of people "feel" or "think" it should be ok.   So if a majority of people "feel" or "think" that it would be ok to kill handicapped and disabled people, would that be ok?   Or if a majority of people "feel" or "think"  that it would be ok to kill a minority of people because of their skin color or ethnicity or some other factor, would that be ok?   You will probably respond by denying you would agree to such things -- but it was precisely this type of moral relativism and indifference to God's law/moral absolutes that allowed people like Hitler and Stalin to rise to power and commit horrendous atrocities.   Don't forget EVERYTHING that Hitler and Stalin and Mao did was technically legal and had the backing of large portions of their population because people bought into the mistaken belief that it was ok because the government and most of the people said that it was ok to do it.

Make no mistake about it, I do believe that there are moral absolutes.  It is immoral to kill, steal, lie, etc.  Christians and Jews find those in the Ten Commandments.  People of other faith traditions find them in their sacred writings.  

Make no mistake about it, I do believe that earthly governments derive their power from God and, in the US, from the consent of the governed.   Nations will rise and fall.  Cities and magnificent human structures will rise and fall.  Humans will be born and die.  But God and God's will/law will endure forever.