Quoted from CICERO

What is the difference between a 25 week fetus of a botched abortion lying on a stainless steel table dying and a 25 week old fetus born prematurely in an incubator in the ICU getting treated to save its life?  Which one is reproductive rights of the mother, which one is a human life protected from murder?

There is no difference.  That is why  a) it is essential to put an end to the rhetorical BS that somehow a woman has a right to murder the baby within in her and b) it is essential to fight to protect human life from contraception to natural death.  Those who support abortion are promoting infanticide --- plain and simple.

Quoted from DemocraticVoiceOfReason

There is no difference.  That is why  a) it is essential to put an end to the rhetorical BS that somehow a woman has a right to murder the baby within in her and b) it is essential to fight to protect human life from contraception to natural death.  Those who support abortion are promoting infanticide --- plain and simple.

I agree there is no difference as well.   Fortunately that particular comparison (more so because the # of weeks) is a very valid comparison without throwing in ones personal religious beliefs/teachings.  

In the issue of abortion, I think there is a need to avoid using the religious argument and DV you STILL have refused to answer if you believe that the beliefs of the Roman Catholic religion should be forced upon all non-Catholics when it comes to abortion.   But then, lack of answer from you obviously is because you cannot comment independently of a copy/paste from some Catholic teachings/beliefs text book.  

Keep the religion out of the abortion issue.   Keep on the idea that, hey, that baby/fetus,embryo---WHATEVER terminology you want to use---is part of the man too.   I don't like the "it's the woman's body" as though the "thing" growing inside her is hers alone.  

Of course, DV would have no clue (nor ever will) whatsoever on this as he has not been able to put his hand on a woman's pregnant abdomen and feel the baby moving, kicking etc and know it's a living thing that is part of you, as the man.   As a real man, I know that feeling three times over.  To have been with Chris at every ob visit during our pregnancies, hear the heartbeat, see our babies in the ultrasound, that's how you know it's a life.  And I knew that each one was part of me, and while the babies were growing inside her (simply a biological difference between a male and female, not a religious thing), I knew that whatever that "thing" was growing inside her, it was living, and think this way, each cell in that "thing" has chromosomes that are MINE, the man.   So it's not just "it's the woman's body and she can do with it what she wants."   When you see the baby as it's being born, hear the first cry, cut the cord, hold it, as a man you know it's part of you too.   There's not need to use Catholic teachings to explain things to non-Catholics.

Unless you are prepared to accept extremist fundamentalist Islamic teachings to be imposed upon you, then don't try to use Catholic teachings in an argument against abortion

Quoted from mikechristine1

Keep the religion out of the abortion issue.  

WHY?  

Agree or not....there are millions of folks out there who don't believe abortion should be an opton because of their 'creation beliefs'. Denying and disregarding that belief system is giving up and giving in to secularism...........a choice many folks are not ready to make....if ever.

And I don't believe that folks, male or female, have to experience a pregnancy to defend 'life'.........no?
You don't have to be on 'death row' to be against capital punishment..............no?

I guess I just don't understand  your reasoning here.....

Quoted from bumblethru

WHY?  

Agree or not....there are millions of folks out there who don't believe abortion should be an opton because of their 'creation beliefs'. Denying and disregarding that belief system is giving up and giving in to secularism...........a choice many folks are not ready to make....if ever.

And I don't believe that folks, male or female, have to experience a pregnancy to defend 'life'.........no?
You don't have to be on 'death row' to be against capital punishment..............no?

I guess I just don't understand  your reasoning here.....

Those who demand that religion be kept out of the discussion of issues would be well advised to actually read the US Constitution.   We not only have the Freedom OF (not FROM) Religion we have the Freedom of Speech.

I have been staunchly pro-life since I attended a debate between Pro-Lifers and Pro-Deathers back in 1974. In fact, one of the speakers on behalf of the Pro-Life side was Hugh Farley.  He made a very intelligent, thoughtful and reasonable defense of the Pro-Life position.  [I may disagree with the now State Senator on other issues but I have always respected and admired his strong pro-life stance.]

Quoted from DemocraticVoiceOfReason

Those who demand that religion be kept out of the discussion of issues would be well advised to actually read the US Constitution.   We not only have the Freedom OF (not FROM) Religion we have the Freedom of Speech.

I have been staunchly pro-life since I attended a debate between Pro-Lifers and Pro-Deathers back in 1974. In fact, one of the speakers on behalf of the Pro-Life side was Hugh Farley.  He made a very intelligent, thoughtful and reasonable defense of the Pro-Life position.  [I may disagree with the now State Senator on other issues but I have always respected and admired his strong pro-life stance.]

No... we actually DO have the freedom FROM religion.  I am free to practice MY religion or no religion at all
if I choose... and not be forced to abide by the religion of others.  

Quoted from Box A Rox

No... we actually DO have the freedom FROM religion.  I am free to practice MY religion or no religion at all if I choose... and not be forced to abide by the religion of others.  

No, it says the state cannot establish a religion and force everybody to worship it. The Constitution is protecting people from the STATE not from RELIGION.  

Elected officials making legislative decisions based on their personal beliefes, whether it is science, religion, or some other ideological belief system doesn't matter.  The federal government mandating everybody to purchase health insurance because you think it is "what everybody needs" and forcing them to abide by it is no different.  It is the established religion of health care and the State that everybody must now worship.  

Quoted from CICERO

No, it says the state cannot establish a religion and force everybody to worship it. The Constitution is protecting people from the STATE not from RELIGION.  

Elected officials making legislative decisions based on their personal beliefes, whether it is science, religion, or some other ideological belief system doesn't matter.  The federal government mandating everybody to purchase health insurance because you think it is "what everybody needs" and forcing them to abide by it is no different.  It is the established religion of health care and the State that everybody must now worship.  

No you have it backwards... the state requires everyone to pay taxes, or fees, to a health insurance plan,
so that the rest of us don't have to pay for YOUR health care.  

Quoted from Box A Rox

No you have it backwards... the state requires everyone to pay taxes, or fees, to a health insurance plan, so that the rest of us don't have to pay for YOUR health care.  

Nobody has to pay for my health care...It is the STATE that requires you to pay for my health care.  You understand that right?

Quoted from CICERO

Nobody has to pay for my health care...It is the STATE that requires you to pay for my health care.  You understand that right?

NOPE!  If your sorry uninsured @ss is laying on the road after an accident, and you are unconscious, it is the law
(and the right thing to do) to provide you with reasonable medical assistance.  

Unless you refuse it... THE REST OF US PAY FOR IT!

Quoted from Box A Rox

NOPE!  If your sorry uninsured @ss is laying on the road after an accident, and you are unconscious, it is the law
(and the right thing to do) to provide you with reasonable medical assistance.  

Unless you refuse it... THE REST OF US PAY FOR IT!

Lol, you say NOPE then proceed to say it is the law.  Please construct a similar argument for the contraception mandate, I need a good laugh.  I wanna hear about the accidental conception.  It should be called the Mary and Joseph mandate. LMAO. Preventing the immaculate conception.LOL

Quoted from CICERO

Lol, you say NOPE then proceed to say it is the law.  Please construct a similar argument for the contraception mandate, I need a good laugh.  I wanna hear about the accident conception.  It should be called the Mary and Joseph mandate. LMAO. Preventing the immaculate conception.LOL

How a woman gets pregnant is no concern of mine.  Her health care plan, like everyone else's is regulated by
state or federal laws to protect the consumer.

(Note) approving contraceptive coverage for women of child bearing age, costs LESS than not providing
it, then paying for the increased incidents of unwanted pregnancy, prenatal, birth, and child health care.

I've told you this before Cicero... If you don't want government... then move to a place where there is none.
I suggest Somalia.

Quoted from Box A Rox

How a woman gets pregnant is no concern of mine.  Her health care plan, like everyone else's is regulated by
state or federal laws to protect the consumer.

(Note) approving contraceptive coverage for women of child bearing age, costs LESS than not providing
it, then paying for the increased incidents of unwanted pregnancy, prenatal, birth, and child health care.

I've told you this before Cicero... If you don't want government... then move to a place where there is none.
I suggest Somalia.

Huzzah, huzzah!! Well said, we agree totally!!!

Quoted from Box A Rox

(Note) approving contraceptive coverage for women of child bearing age, costs LESS than not providing
it, then paying for the increased incidents of unwanted pregnancy, prenatal, birth, and child health care.

I see you are moving away from the original statement about the separation of church FROM state because you don't want to be forced to live by laws based on religious values.  But you have no problem forcing people to live by laws that reflect your values.  You like totalitarianism, but only if you agree with the values of the tyrant.

BTW...justifying loss of liberty for a projected collective savings doesn't persuade me.

Quoted from CICERO

I see you are moving away from the original statement about the separation of church FROM state because you don't want to be forced to live by laws based on religious values.
(No but posting about moving...
I've told you this before Cicero... If you don't want government... then move to a place where
there is none.
I suggest Somalia.)

  But you have no problem forcing people to live by laws that reflect your values.
You like totalitarianism, but only if you agree with the values of the tyrant.
BTW...justifying loss of liberty for a projected collective savings doesn't persuade me.

Abortion doesn't FORCE anyone to have one.  It makes it legal and SAFE for anyone who wants one.  
Religious laws are ok for that religion, but not in a country that has a Constitution that guarantees that
no religion will make the laws.
The bible condemns stealing... so does civil law.  But the latter isn't dependent on the former... it's
independent from it.

Quoted from DemocraticVoiceOfReason

I find it disconcerting that 169 Democrats voted in May against a bill which would have banned "gender selection abortions".  

I'm waiting for the day that science that can positively identify the genetics that makes a person gay and what the Dems will do if people start choosing abortion because of  a "undesired" result of a test...what a Quandary!