Quoted from Box A Rox

Cic believes in "freedom of religion", (to worship as you choose ,but not "freedom from religion"
(where Americans are FREE from the laws and restrictions of others religion).

Catholics used to consider it a 'sin' to eat meat on Friday... Can you imagine if the Catholics among us tried
to push their "meatless Friday's" law on the rest of our population??? Ridiculous!  They seem to have no
problem enslaving the rest of society with their view on abortion.  

The Right has this fear of Muslim Sharia law being imposed on Americans but condone a different variety of
Religious Law as if it were a good thing.

Separation of Church and State... You are free to worship or not, and cannot be forced to abide by
religious laws.  It's guaranteed in the First Amendment to Cicero's CONSTITUTION.

that's why elections and the set up of government machinery IS GENERATIONAL.....it's pendulum effect...when you
and I are dead and gone, the dark ages will come back......

progressive is subjective

Quoted from DemocraticVoiceOfReason

Muslim Americans have absolutely the same Constitutional Rights as every other American.  They also have the same responsibilities and limitations as ever other American under the law.   Most people are well aware that some extreme religious practices have been limited by law (polygamy for example) -- but the fact is that basic commonly accepted Jewish, Christian, Native American, Hindu and -yes- even Muslim moral thought has been woven into our nation's laws.   Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindis, Native Americans all believe that stealing is wrong -- and lo and behold America has laws against stealing.  So a religious/moral belief can be codified into law.    And -yet -  you don't see the Pro-Deathers objecting to the laws against stealing ??????????

"Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindis, Native Americans all believe that stealing is wrong"
But how do they feel about abortion???

US Religious Views on Abortion
The 10 Largest Christian Denominations and Five Largest non-Christian Religious Groups:
1. Judaism No official position
2. Unitarian Universalism PRO Choice
3. Buddhism No official position
4. Hinduism No official position
5. Presbyterian Church (USA) PRO Choice
6. Evangelical Lutheran Church in America No official position
7. United Methodist Church PRO Choice
8. Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod Against Abortion
9. Catholic Church Against Abortion
10. National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc. No official position
11. Islam No official position
12. American Baptist Churches USA No official position
13. Southern Baptist Convention Against Abortion
14. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) No official position
15. Assemblies of God USA Against Abortion

Only 4 of the Major Religions in the USA are Against Abortion... the other 11 major religions are
either Pro Choice or take no official position on Abortion.
DVOR and other Anti Choice Fanatics would FORCE their religious beliefs on the majority of religions of
our country.  Freedom of Religion... not if a few religious groups FORCE their religious beliefs on the
rest of us.

Quoted from Box A Rox

"Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindis, Native Americans all believe that stealing is wrong"
But how do they feel about abortion???

US Religious Views on Abortion
The 10 Largest Christian Denominations and Five Largest non-Christian Religious Groups:
1. Judaism No official position
2. Unitarian Universalism PRO Choice
3. Buddhism No official position
4. Hinduism No official position
5. Presbyterian Church (USA) PRO Choice
6. Evangelical Lutheran Church in America No official position
7. United Methodist Church PRO Choice
8. Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod Against Abortion
9. Catholic Church Against Abortion
10. National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc. No official position
11. Islam No official position
12. American Baptist Churches USA No official position
13. Southern Baptist Convention Against Abortion
14. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) No official position
15. Assemblies of God USA Against Abortion

Only 4 of the Major Religions in the USA are Against Abortion... the other 11 major religions are
either Pro Choice or take no official position on Abortion.

And those 4 religions have no right to their 1st Amendment rights.

Democrats and Republicans agreement on ABORTION.

They agree. They love this issue because they know that questions about the role of government in this will never be resolved, since they boil down to a fundamental disagreement over what constitutes an individual life. Thank goodness this tool will always be there when they need it to demonize their opponents and whip up their base.

Quoted from CICERO

And those 4 religions have no right to their 1st Amendment rights.

Please explain Cissy... Who is being denied their 1st amendment right?  Who is being FORCED to have an
abortion???
I fully support the 1st amendment right to practice your religion and if not having an abortion is part of
your religion... I fully support your RIGHT NOT TO BE FORCED TO HAVE ONE.
Just as I fully support your RIGHT TO HAVE ONE IF THAT IS YOUR CHOICE.

So please explain... who's 1st amendment rights are being violated???

Quoted from Box A Rox

Please explain Cissy... Who is being denied their 1st amendment right?  Who is being FORCED to have an
abortion???  I fully support the 1st amendment right to practice your religion and if not having an abortion is part of
your religion... I fully support your RIGHT NOT TO BE FORCED TO HAVE ONE.
Just as I fully support your RIGHT TO HAVE ONE IF THAT IS YOUR CHOICE.

So please explain... who's 1st amendment rights are being violated???

Well, in prior posts box, you said that Paul Ryan's personal views about abortion was "religious law" and had no place in government.  Yet, as I pointed out in the incest example, you have no problem with the government law mirroring Islamic and many major religions "religious law" which forbids incest. So, many years ago when government made laws forbidding incest because it was against their religious moral teachings, you have no problem with it.

Using your argument of FORCE, government has no right making incest illegal because making it legal doesn't FORCE people to have incestuous relationships.  I for one am in support of keeping incest illegal because of the negative affect it has on society, and that is my same view on abortion.

You seem pick and choose which "religious laws" can be introduced and adopted as government law, and if you don't agree with a certain "religious law" you believe that a person has no right express them and introduce or vote and legislate according to their personal religious belief.  

You continue to confuse introducing or passing laws based on the moral and philosophical beliefs society has based on their religious teachings with FORCING people to worship their particular religion.

Quoted from CICERO

And those 4 religions have no right to their 1st Amendment rights.

Democrats and Republicans agreement on ABORTION.

They agree. They love this issue because they know that questions about the role of government in this will never be resolved, since they boil down to a fundamental disagreement over what constitutes an individual life. Thank goodness this tool will always be there when they need it to demonize their opponents and whip up their base.

Your argument is a particularly ignorant one -- since the 1st Amendment Freedom of Speech, Religion, etc. does not mean that you have the freedom to do whatever you want to do.    For example,  some people believe that their religion calls them to engage in polygamy.  Polygamy is against the law BUT they certainly have the Constitutional Right to express their desire that the Anti-Polygamy Laws should be repealed.  It doesn't mean that they HAVE TO BE repealed.  But they certainly have the right to express their opinion on the issue and publicly support and vote for candidates for public office who would vote to change the laws.

So far the only people demonizing their opponents are those who support abortion.

Furthermore, your continuous attempts to paint the Republicans as anti-women is baseless and ludicrous.  One example is the FACT that America under President Bush pushed for reforms in Afghanistan that allowed girls and young women the ability to be educated for the first time in centuries - if not ever - in that country.  
You seem to conveniently ignore or forget that it was Democratic Vice President Traitor Joe Biden who said it was not the U.S.'s place to question China's  One Child Policy -- a policy which has literally allowed parents or the government to kill infants (mostly female) -- so apparently neo-liberal pro-choice Democrats like Traitor Joe Biden not only think abortion is OK but that infanticide is OK.

You seem to conveniently ignore or forget that it was a Democratic U.S. Senate and a few dozen House Democrats including a few that we know from the New York delegation who voted AGAINST legislation that would make it illegal to have an abortion for purposes of gender selection.   In most cases around the world, gender selection abortion is used to abort unborn female babies.   Talk about a war against women -- the war against women is being led and fought from the extreme political left in this country.

DVR, my reply was tongue and cheek.  I'm making the point that ALL religion has a right in the public square and public debate. That includes Muslims, Catholics, Mormons, and Athiest.  

Quoted from CICERO

DVR, my reply was tongue and cheek.  I'm making the point that ALL religion has a right in the public square and public debate. That includes Muslims, Catholics, Mormons, and Athiest.  

Mea culpa, Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa ...My apologies - I was responding to Box's response to your post.   Box's position is the one that I meant to label as ignorant.  I am sorry if there was any misunderstanding.

I agree 100% with your view that ALL religions have a right in the public square and public debate.  That is what I was trying to say -- we all have the right to voice our differing views and seek to have our view become the one that is codified in law.   Historically - that has been the case.  

People like Box make their outrageously extreme statements like  "if you abolish abortion than next they will be able to ban eating meat on Friday".   That is another ludicrous comment.   First - eating meat or fish on a certain day is not the moral equivalent of determining when human life begins and ends and whether abortion, euthanasia, death penalty or any other law which would legally justify ending another human life should or should not be adopted.

That is the problem with the extremist left -- they have no concept of morality.  Frankly, they have no sense of history or, it appears, even a shred of common sense.   Everything is morally ok if they "feel" it is OK and they delude themselves into thinking that decisions about human life are morally equivalent to dietary norms/customs.

Quoted from DemocraticVoiceOfReason

That is the problem with the extremist left -- they have no concept of morality..

They have morals. They merely allow people to choose to act on their morals without government mandated rules.

The extreme right has similarly inhumane morals, as judged by the lefties.

Right wing pro-lifers support the killing of the innocent, without arrest, trial or conviction.

Surprisingly, a lefty named box, a well known pro-choicer, also supports the killing of the innocent.

How is the stance of abortion as murder, any different than the stance, that drones and collateral damages of war, are murder, morally?

Invoking religion into the argument, one must apply it to both sides.

Using God in the arguments is using the name of the Lord in vain.

Morals need to be taught by government example; that human lives are precious, not disposable threats to the government.

Morality needs no legislation. It exists with or without legal authorization.

Is it moral, to impose your morality, on those with different beliefs and morals?

Answers:

Lefties=no
Wingnuts=yes

The entire argument boils down to defining, is it legislating morality, or inflicting morality based laws on others?

These are the two opposing positions on morality based laws.

I have to side with the liberals on whether the government should be regulating morals.

The government should be teaching morality through it's own actions. People would then follow their good example.

Forcing your morals on others does not work.

It's been tried for centuries all around the world and has failed miserably.

Religious law belongs in Religion, not in our government.
"Thou shalt not steal" is a religious law that even atheists agree with... So it's appropriate in civil law.

As posted above, a small minority of US religions are anti abortion.  Most are pro choice or have no
position on abortion.  

Passing laws based on the religious views of a few fanatics infringes on the rights of the rest of us.

Quoted from Box A Rox

Religious law belongs in Religion, not in our government.
"Thou shalt not steal" is a religious law that even atheists agree with... So it's appropriate in civil law.

As posted above, a small minority of US religions are anti abortion.  Most are pro choice or have no
position on abortion.  

Passing laws based on the religious views of a few fanatics infringes on the rights of the rest of us.

Oh, since Athiests agree with the beliefs of another religious organizations values it is acceptable?  Interesting, so we should just look toward the Athiests when writing laws.  I wonder what their thoughts are on drug laws and polygamy laws, since that are apparently the moral barometer.

Quoted from CICERO

Oh, since Athiests agree with the beliefs of another religious organizations values it is acceptable?  Interesting, so we should just look toward the Athiests when writing laws.  I wonder what their thoughts are on drug laws and polygamy laws, since that are apparently the moral barometer.

Cicero always gets it wrong.  Why bother.

Quoted from Box A Rox

Cicero always gets it wrong.  Why bother.

When I point out box's fallacies it's always me getting it wrong. Lol

Quoted from DemocraticVoiceOfReason

Your argument is a particularly ignorant one -- since the 1st Amendment Freedom of Speech, Religion, etc. does not mean that you have the freedom to do whatever you want to do.    For example,  some people believe that their religion calls them to engage in polygamy.  Polygamy is against the law BUT they certainly have the Constitutional Right to express their desire that the Anti-Polygamy Laws should be repealed.  It doesn't mean that they HAVE TO BE repealed.  But they certainly have the right to express their opinion on the issue and publicly support and vote for candidates for public office who would vote to change the laws.

So far the only people demonizing their opponents are those who support abortion.

Furthermore, your continuous attempts to paint the Republicans as anti-women is baseless and ludicrous.  One example is the FACT that America under President Bush pushed for reforms in Afghanistan that allowed girls and young women the ability to be educated for the first time in centuries - if not ever - in that country.  
You seem to conveniently ignore or forget that it was Democratic Vice President Traitor Joe Biden who said it was not the U.S.'s place to question China's  One Child Policy -- a policy which has literally allowed parents or the government to kill infants (mostly female) -- so apparently neo-liberal pro-choice Democrats like Traitor Joe Biden not only think abortion is OK but that infanticide is OK.

You seem to conveniently ignore or forget that it was a Democratic U.S. Senate and a few dozen House Democrats including a few that we know from the New York delegation who voted AGAINST legislation that would make it illegal to have an abortion for purposes of gender selection.   In most cases around the world, gender selection abortion is used to abort unborn female babies.   Talk about a war against women -- the war against women is being led and fought from the extreme political left in this country.

  

polygamy only has to do with marriage....but HOOKING up 1 girl 2 guys is OK...just ask penthouse and any other
actor/tress that provide us with the examples of 'non-polygamy'....

polygamy IS religious the only reason it was 'outlawed' was for tax collecting and hard/socioeconomic views....

I could care less if you marry 2 folks, have an abortion, marry gay etc etc........

if your church forbids it either :
1.leave
2. change

NO ONE MAKES ANYONE DO ANYTHING.....compelling social movement via laws whether religious or not is what ANYONE
we place above us as masters is practiced at.

so Box being the grand cheerleader has decided to place those elected ABOVE him/herself through faith in their
abilities....STILL A RELIGION....fine with me.

just because something is illegal doesn't make it wrong
just because something is legal doesn't make it right

Quoted from CICERO

Oh, since Athiests agree with the beliefs of another religious organizations values it is acceptable?  Interesting, so we should just look toward the Athiests when writing laws.  I wonder what their thoughts are on drug laws and polygamy laws, since that are apparently the moral barometer.

Drug laws are stupid and merely serve to keep a certain percentage of the population imprisoned.

Polygamy is a marriage issue and has no place being regulated by the government.