On the Vietnam war vote to authorize Johnson's escalation of the war(The Gulf Of Tonkin Amendment) only two US Senators voted against going to war... Senator Ernest Gruening, D-Alaska, and Senator Wayne Morse, D-Ore.
I don't know what your point is on this?
LBJ is credited with the "great society" and "war on poverty" which you would have to admit is a great liberal achievement. So I'm guessing,,,just guessing,,,you would consider LBJ a "liberal". Am I correct? He's also the commander and chief during times of war correct? So somehow over the year, the liberal label LBJ earned pushing the "great society" is scrubbed in order to create an image of war mongering conservative and pinning Vietnam on conservatives and Republicans.
LBJ is credited with the "great society" and "war on poverty" which you would have to admit is a great liberal achievement. So I'm guessing,,,just guessing,,,you would consider LBJ a "liberal". Am I correct? He's also the commander and chief during times of war correct? So somehow over the year, the liberal label LBJ earned pushing the "great society" is scrubbed in order to create an image of war mongering conservative and pinning Vietnam on conservatives and Republicans.
UGGG! My point was a response to Bumble on his post (see post 244 & 245)
You really need to get a grip of history. The Vietnam war was escalated by Kennedy, and turned into a full fledged war by Johnson, but hardly started there. The complete history would take way too long to post here but a brief summary:
~ The French left Vietnam (their colony) when WW2 started and the Japanese took over the country. (appx1940?) ~ After the Japanese were defeated, the French attempted to re-take possession of Vietnam,(appx1945) ~ The Vietnamese under Ho Chi Mihn wanted independence for their country and fought the French. Since France was a disaster and it's military destroyed in WW2, the USA took over supplying and financing the war for the French, but the French did the fighting. (This was the beginning of our involvement in Vietnam. appx 1945-1950's Eisenhower) ~ The French got their butt kicked and surrendered the country. (1956) The surrender included a cease fire, division of the two opposing forces (north & South) and GUARANTEE OF FREE ELECTIONS in 1956. Ho was communist and would have overwhelmingly won any election so the USA/France etc, never had the elections. (Eisenhower) ~The North under Ho Chi Mihn, again went to war to take back Vietnam. ~ Late 50's/early '60's, the USA (see domino theory) had bogus elections in the south and started fighting the Communists, under Eisenhower then Kennedy as US advisers. and finally ~The Gulf of Tonkin Amendment under Johnson which was the beginning of the war for large scale US Troop actions. This is a brief summary, you need to read a history book to get the entire picture.
The Gulf of Tonkin was the beginning of large scale US military action in Vietnam, but by no means the cause or beginning of the war. The USA was fighting in Vietnam in some capacity since the end of WW2. ************************* Yes Johnson was a liberal and ran against a Conservative Goldwater. Johnson won, but supported the war. Goldwater lost votes by discussing a Nuke option in Vietnam.
1968 Liberal Humphrey lost to Republican Nixon, and Independent Wallace. In the Conservative south, Humphery took only Texas, Wallace (anti civil rights) took 5 southern states, and Nixon the rest of the South. By this time the Conservative Democrat South was now the Republican Conservative South, and has been ever since.
See, too long to discuss entirely here but you can see the South WAS Conservative Democrat, and is now mostly Conservative Republican. To my original point, the CONSERVATIVE (Democrats), then Conservative (Republicans) opposed civil rights in the USA.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
Continued: Vietnam anti war candidates : Bobby Kennedy DemLib George McGovern DemLib Eugene McCarthy DemLib Ted Kennedy DemLib Ed Muskie DemLib
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
Yes Johnson was a liberal and ran against a Conservative Goldwater. Johnson won, but supported the war. Goldwater lost votes by discussing a Nuke option in Vietnam.
To my original point, the CONSERVATIVE (Democrats), then Conservative (Republicans) opposed civil rights in the USA.
Conservatives were strongly on the wrong side of both of those events.
My point is...Painting with a broad brush claiming conservatives were on the wrong side of civil rights and Vietnam is ridiculous. The fact is, a small minority of the country was against the civil rights act. The conservative label as being against it is not accurate. Same with Vietnam, a MAJORITY of Americans approved of American involvement in Vietnam, and that includes Kennedy, and LBJ.
BTW, it was George Wallace's VP that suggested using Nukes in Vietnam. Wallace tried to split the “Southern Democrat” vote in the south to help Humphrey, AND FAILED. I wouldn’t call Southern Democrats “conservatives” but rather racists
Even using the term "conservative" is painting with a broad brush. The Conservative movement can be broken down into two main areas; Fiscal Conservatism and Social conservatism. Just because you claim to be one, does not necessarily mean you are the other. I for example, consider myself a fiscal conservative, but I also consider myself to be socially moderate, or even liberal. When I take one of those online tests that determine what type of political philosophy I believe in, it always puts in the Libertarian corner. Although, I am for a LITTLE more gov't than the typical libertarian is.
"Arguing with liberals is like playing chess with a pigeon; no matter how good I am at chess, the pigeon is just going to knock out the pieces, crap on the board, and strut around like it is victorious." - Author Unknown
Fiscal/Social Conservative... I miss the "Fiscal Conservatives" of old. They have been out of favor since Reagan.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
Same with Vietnam, a MAJORITY of Americans approved of American involvement in Vietnam, and that includes Kennedy, and LBJ.
The entire Senate except two senators voted FOR THE VIETNAM WAR. Agreed, that most Americans supported the war at it's start... but The Conservatives never left support of the war, even as the war was being lost... Liberals and most of America turned against the war, and the more the US population found out the facts of the war, the more America opposed it. Conservatives were calling for additional support for the war, even as the North Vietnamese were entering the South's capital under Ford.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
THAT WAR WAS LOST BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF POLITICAL WILL TO WIN. The troops at the front were undermined by the communists and weak politicians and media on the home front. There was no will to win. America had no stomach for victory and still doesn't because we have traitors like Boxocrap at all levels of our government.
"While Foreign Terrorists were plotting to murder and maim using homemade bombs in Boston, Democrap officials in Washington DC, Albany and here were busy watching ME and other law abiding American Citizens who are gun owners and taxpayers, in an effort to blame the nation's lack of security on US so that they could have a political scapegoat."
THAT WAR WAS LOST BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF POLITICAL WILL TO WIN. The troops at the front were undermined by the communists and weak politicians and media on the home front. There was no will to win. America had no stomach for victory and still doesn't because we have traitors like Boxocrap at all levels of our government.
As I posted in #261:
Graham & "The Conservatives never left support of the war". If it were up to them we'd still be dying in Vietnam and they'd still be saying that they can see the light at the end of the tunnel.
58,245 Americans died fighting in that war, including almost 15,000 of my brother Marines.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
You and your brother Marines would have won in 2 years if you had politicos with backbone and the will to win. Instead people like you, who came home and decided nothing about liberty and freedom was worth fighting for, and nothing about tyranny was worth fighting against. People who burned flags and threw their support to the communists after being mind-fu(ked by the left wing professors and nihilists on the home front. Some just did too much drugs. Either way, because we didn't have the national stomach to win, we lost and are still losing. And THAT is what wreaks the worst about liberalism. And it was the left who polished the dagger and gripped it firm before driving the blade in between America's backbone. And you apparently made sure you grabbed a bit of the hilt when it was at last being shoved in. Now you just twist it, a disgrace to your brother Marines.
"While Foreign Terrorists were plotting to murder and maim using homemade bombs in Boston, Democrap officials in Washington DC, Albany and here were busy watching ME and other law abiding American Citizens who are gun owners and taxpayers, in an effort to blame the nation's lack of security on US so that they could have a political scapegoat."
Graham's quote from above, is all that needs to be said about my statement that Conservatives, then and even now still support furthering the Vietnam war.
Graham has a lot of pent up hostility... just read his description: *burned flags* *threw their support to the communists* *mind-fu(ked* * Left wing professors and nihilists* *did too much drugs* *Dagger and gripped it firm before driving the blade in between America's backbone* *disgrace*
Graham would still be killing Vietnamese (we killed 3 million of them) in hopes that they'd give up their fight for independence. My guess, they'd still be bleeding us in the jungle, the way we are today bleeding in the sand of Iraq and the Mountains of Afghanistan.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
Vietnam and after just lead to cluster f*cks of trying to police and nation build countries. I'm conservative and I will tell you box of rox not all conservatives are pro-war. What's really sad though is where are all the so called anti-war left now, during the Bush administration they were up in arms over the wars but since Obama came in not a peep. What's funny also is that Obama expanded the wars by upping the drone strikes into Pakistan, increasing the troop levels in Afghanistan, and has also led bombing missions in Yemen. Why is it the left are not saying a word about any of this, let me guess because he got the Nobel peace prize gimme a break.
I could also go on about the lies about closing Gitmo or repealing the Patriot Act if you want to talk about civil rights and democrats. It leads me to believe everything the left complained about was just partisan politics during the Bush administration. If anything the only ones who stayed true to their message and continue the fight for civil liberties and a non-interventionist foreign policy is libertarians.
"In the beginning of a change, the Patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a Patriot."
Conservative, like Liberals are not ONE THING. Obama promised to get combat troops out of the lost cause of Iraq. He has done that. (HUH... 7 years later and still no WMD'S)
There are lots of liberals who think that Obama isn't liberal enough. Many Americans are NOT happy with Health Care Reform... I am one of them. I think Obama should have held out for a single payer option.
I gave Obama a free ride for the first two years on the war in Afghanistan. Along with the OTHER Bush war, Obama had to fix what Bush wasn't man enough to handle. Looking at the track record of Afghanistan... Has anyone WON there? Not the British when they were at their high point, not the Russians when they still had a SuperPower army... and now not the USA.
AlQaeda was always the target... not Afghanistan. Time to focus on the real enemy. Most Afghans have never heard of the Sept 11th attacks. They are fighting to repel invaders... Us.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
Fiscal/Social Conservative... I miss the "Fiscal Conservatives" of old. They have been out of favor since Reagan.
The fiscal conservatives of old raised the liberal progressive hippies.....then they raised the "me me me just do its"...who then in turn raised the "I dont give a rats a$$, what are the Kardashians doing"
...you are a product of your environment, your environment is a product of your priorities, your priorities are a product of you......
The replacement of morality and conscience with law produces a deadly paradox.
STOP BEING GOOD DEMOCRATS---STOP BEING GOOD REPUBLICANS--START BEING GOOD AMERICANS
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