Quoted from bumblethru

It is what it is and the facts are the facts. Can't hide behind a cloak of black.

55 hit it right on the head......the catholic church is nothing more than a government corporation with layers and layers of bureaucracy!!

Continue with your 'man made' rosaries, novenas, candle lighting, bingo games and festas, (been there-done it) while I continue to have a personal relationship with God/Jesus Christ without the middle man and perhaps we'll continue this discussion on the 'other side' of life.

I hope to see you there. Not all of us will make it.

[quote=1037]As you are Catholic you would know that the devil is always in our midst.

And I am not undermining Christ's Church, the priests who molested children did that for many years.
And the higher ups who tried to cover it up.
And all of the money taken from parishioners to pay for their misdeeds. When money given to the church is supposed to be used for upkeep of the church and its mission of helping people with the Word of God and those who are in need.

And again as you are also Catholic you know that NO man is without sin, including all priests and bishops.

Its just that some sin ALOT more than others. Its when those sins continue and are allowed to continue and it hurts the church's people....

DV I guess we are in the same boat. You feel deeply for your priest and I loved Father Kostek. And yes all are sinners. But the difference between you and me is you seem to put your priest and bishop on a pedestal, when they are just men and should not be considered "better" than us.

For the church for US, and our relationship and love of God and Jesus. That is what is really important. So this time I have to keep my word with no more talk of a certain someone.

/quote]

My love and loyalty to God and the  Church as a whole and of my parish is far greater than to any other person.    My great-grandfather was among the founding members of both Saint Mary's and Saint Adalbert's.

I don't put anybody on a pedestal.  I just choose NOT to allow their names to be trashed by someone
peddling farcical allegations.

Quoted from 147

I hope to see you there. Not all of us will make it.

I agree whole heartedly.

But if anyone thinks that love and loyalty to their 'church', saying rosaries, reciting novenas, lighting candles, being the all around good guy/girl, joining church organizations, praying to mary or any other saint, receiving last rights and protecting the bad elements in the church is going to get them into heaven.......then I guess Christ died for nothing!

"Christ is the ONLY way to the Father".....there is no other intercession! It's that personal!! The rest is just hogwash! (that's if you are of the christian faith) IMHO

Quoted from bumblethru

I agree whole heartedly.

But if anyone thinks that love and loyalty to their 'church', saying rosaries, reciting novenas, lighting candles, being the all around good guy/girl, joining church organizations, praying to mary or any other saint, receiving last rights and protecting the bad elements in the church is going to get them into heaven.......then I guess Christ died for nothing!

"Christ is the ONLY way to the Father".....there is no other intercession! It's that personal!! The rest is just hogwash! (that's if you are of the christian faith) IMHO

Only Catholics pary to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

To Catholics, the Blessed Virgin Mary is the Mediatrix, the Advocate, the Intercessor. Consider, the Wedding Feast of Cana. The Second Vatican Ecumenical Council reminds us most opportunely that Mary continues to intercede with her Son in favor of her children on earth. When she quite simply told Him, "They have no wine," Christ responded most generously. How, then, would He not show the same generosity to her when she says, "They have no place?"

Catholics ask Mary to pray to Jesus for us. She is interceding, kind of in the way a pastor might pray for you or me. In the Rosary we ask Mary to "Pray for us sinners."  And we think she is quite good at that.

Quoted from 147

Catholics ask Mary to pray to Jesus for us. She is interceding, kind of in the way a pastor might pray for you or me. In the Rosary we ask Mary to "Pray for us sinners."  And we think she is quite good at that.

Point taken. But why does ANYONE need an interceder when Christ said that 'no one goes to the Father except through Me'? Jesus is the intercessor!! He is the one who died for all sins, including mary's.....yes? Christ was born without sin....not mary. She was just being obedient to God....no?

It's between the sinner and Christ.....it really is just that personal!! No middle wo/man required here. Christ already paid the price.....nothing or no one more is needed....yes?

Catholicism is a belief system onto itself.

That's where Christianity and Catholicism differ. It's not wrong - Catholics simply accept all the help they can get, via the Blessed Mother, the Saints, etc.  Maybe we need more help than Christians - who knows.

I know some Episcopalians and Lutherans who say prayers to the Blessed Virgin Mary.  And even Muslims
hold the Mother of Jesus in high regard.

Actualy Islam is the only other faith tradition that holds Mary above all.  She is the only woman named in the Quran.

Praying to Mary as an intermediary is a a wonderful way to go.  BT--sorry Catholicism has let you down.  All of us have questioned our faith over and over.  However, your Marian theology is off.  "Mary conceived WITHOUT sin, pray for us."  That's how it goes.  Mary was conceived without the "stain" of original sin---Baltimore Cathechism.

BT heard this at MASS recentlyperfect for you--"a non-Catholic man said to a Catholic, "why do you Catholics honor Mary so much? What's so great about her?  When I think of her, I think of her being ordinary just like my mother."  The Catholic responded "well I can't tell you what the differences  are between the mothers.  But I could tell you the difference between the sons."

Quoted from 612

Actualy Islam is the only other faith tradition that holds Mary above all.  She is the only woman named in the Quran.

Praying to Mary as an intermediary is a a wonderful way to go.  BT--sorry Catholicism has let you down.  All of us have questioned our faith over and over.  However, your Marian theology is off.  "Mary conceived WITHOUT sin, pray for us."  That's how it goes.  Mary was conceived without the "stain" of original sin---Baltimore Cathechism.

BT heard this at MASS recentlyperfect for you--"a non-Catholic man said to a Catholic, "why do you Catholics honor Mary so much? What's so great about her?  When I think of her, I think of her being ordinary just like my mother."  The Catholic responded "well I can't tell you what the differences  are between the mothers.  But I could tell you the difference between the sons."

Martin Luther maintained a devotion to Mary all of his life .. even after splitting with Rome.   Many Episcopal
churches have a "Lady Chapel" in honor of the Blessed Virgin Mary.   There is even a shrine in New Hampshire built by an Episcopalian in honor of Mary.

Quoted from DemocraticVoiceOfReason

I know some Episcopalians and Lutherans who say prayers to the Blessed Virgin Mary.  And even Muslims
hold the Mother of Jesus in high regard.

I know some people in Rotterdam that have lawn orniments of Mary in a half a bathtub.

Quoted from CICERO

I know some people in Rotterdam that have lawn orniments of Mary in a half a bathtub.

So do I -- recycling old bath tubs is not a bad thing -- and I am sure that Mary doesn't mind.

Quoted from DemocraticVoiceOfReason

So do I -- recycling old bath tubs is not a bad thing -- and I am sure that Mary doesn't mind.

The half a bathtub...It's like Mary's own little temple.

Quoted from CICERO

The half a bathtub...It's like Mary's own little temple.

I would personally prefer something made of stone for a Marian shrine ... a Lourdes-like grotto

Yes DVR you are right.  I didn't mean to intimate otherwise.  Anglicans and Orthodox believe in Mary as mother of G-d.  In fact I am very involved with Capital Area Council of Churches which involves many many Christian denominations.  But I have to say only the Orthodox priest ever refers to Mary.  Episcopals not so much.  They revere her but really not the same way Catholisim (all branches) does.  

The Greek church in Albany has many icons devoted to Mary.  But the Protestant belief is that Mary was not without sin.

I am grateful for mary's faithful obedience and listening to God's instructions. (although this was God's prophetic plan)

However, Mary was NOT born without sin. She was a (virgin)human being. What she carried in her womb was without sin. She was an obedient vessel to complete God's plan for salvation for all! Mary filled an old testament prophecy.

Mary, just as Moses, Abraham, Jacob and John the Baptist (just to name a few) were no different in being obedient to God's instructions. But none were without sin. Jesus Christ died on the cross for ALL OF THEM!