Quoted from DemocraticVoiceOfReason

Besides going to Mass would NOT scar any child psychologically or do any harm to them.   The same
goes for taking a religion class.

Listen, I'm Catholic myself.  It would be my opinion also that no child would be harmed either.

HOWEVER, tell us, if you had a child and you lived in a city where the public schools were as bad or worse than Schenectady, and the only non public school in the city was a school affiliated with a mosque and run by an Islamic group, would YOU want YOUR child sitting in classes being taught Islamic stuff and being required to do the prayers 5 times a day, and if you had a daughter would you want her to be mandated to wear a burqua to school?   Would you accept that and send a child there if that was the only school outside of a failing public school?

You obviously have no respect for other religions and their beliefs.  How about a student who is from a practicing Jewish family and learns in class that you have to be baptized in order to go to heaven.  How does that child feel, all concerned when grandma dies, knowing grandma was never baptized (because grandma is Jewish), now being all upset.  In the olden days, (and I'll be some real old fashioned Catholics would still believe this) that "the Jews KILLED Jesus."  I'm sure no Catholic schools would ever present it in that way anymore but the point I'm trying to make is that while many of us, as Catholics, don't believe children would be harmed by hearing prayers, no more than children wouldn't be harmed by hearing the pledge of allegiance or singing the national anthem, however, it is incumbent upon us to respect others beliefs that are different than ours, and thus we should not expect nor proclaim that the kids should go to Catholic school and have Catholic school as the only alternative to public schools.

My mother put 7 children through Catholic schools and we all sacrificed to make that happen.  Myself and my
extended family have helped put my cousins' children and my nieces and great-nieces and great-nephews
in Catholic schools.  

I have many friends who are Jewish and many friends who are of different Christian denominations.  I have
been involved in Inter-Faith and Ecumenical activities.

I am NOT going to let a little piss-ant like MC make completely bogus statements about me in his-her
mentally deranged attempt at character assassination.

Quoted from DemocraticVoiceOfReason

My mother put 7 children through Catholic schools and we all sacrificed to make that happen.  Myself and my
extended family have helped put my cousins' children and my nieces and great-nieces and great-nephews
in Catholic schools.  

I have many friends who are Jewish and many friends who are of different Christian denominations.  I have
been involved in Inter-Faith and Ecumenical activities.

I am NOT going to let a little piss-ant like MC make completely bogus statements about me in his-her
mentally deranged attempt at character assassination.

YOu are completely missing the point, DV.   And you refuse to respond to the points I made----because then you would have to admit you are wrong.   Regardless of what WE, as Catholics, belief about whether other children will be harmed by participating, there are parents who prefer that their children not be told that they can't go to Heaven if they aren't baptized, and other beliefs.  Just like I asked you if you would put a daughter in an Islamic school, would you want her to be ordered to wear a burqua and go to the mosque several times a day?   Would you?????   Then you have to be respectful of the beliefs of non-Catholics.


Now, yes, you said your mother sacrificed to put 7 kids through Catholic school   AGAIN, I told you and you refuse to respond to the point that tuition was VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY inexpensive.  In those days it was almost all nuns, and tuition could easily be less than $100 a year.    Now, DV, can you have an intelligent discussion and suggest WHERE a typical Schenectady family with an income of $30,000 should sacrifice in order to pay $12,000 tuition?   Should they sacrifice heat and electrity?   Not eat?   Stop paying mortgage or rent and become homeless?   This is a VERY LEGITIMATE QUESTION with respect to your statment that people CAN send their children to Catholic school and I ask you HOW can they afford it.....and your answer is to REFUSE to admit that it is NOT AFFORDABLE

So, your mother made sacrifices to send you kids to Catholic school   What sacrifices can be made with an income of $30,000 in order to pay $12,000 for tuition?????  

The Catholic Church does not teach that you can't go to heaven if you aren't baptized.  It hasn't taught
that in at least 45 years ... and even then it was actually a misinterpretation by some of ACTUAL
church teaching.

Many folks who were not Catholic have attended Catholic schools - elementary, high school, colleges and
graduate level universities.   They received quality educations and were NOT harmed by attending.

Getting back to my ORIGINAL point .. and I will remain focused on that from now on ...
the way to improve public schools is NOT to take taxpayer dollars from them and give them to charter
schools ....   charter schools should be FORCED to raise ALL of their own money in the private sector.
The property tax for PUBLIC SCHOOLS should be used ONLY to fund PUBLIC SCHOOLS  and the same
with State Aid for Public Education.
That is ONE part of the solution --- others include lengthening the school year, adopting some form of
merit pay system for teachers and administrators,  consolidating the over 600 public school districts in
New York State into 62 public school districts,   refunding ALL of the State Regents Exams and RAISING
the standards for those .. not lowering the standards ---- FULLY FUNDING   the No Child Left Behind
Initiative  (the one that Ted Kennedy and George W Bush put together)
EVERY effort should be made to get children reading AT or as close to grade level as early as possible
in their academic careers  ... get back to basic math and writing skills programs

and ... pass legislation eliminating the local property tax for schools .. and FULLY fund public education
from the state income tax ... dispersing the money to PUBLIC school districts SOLELY based on a per
pupil basis  ---- NO MORE extra state aid to school districts that happen to have a powerful state legislator
representing it.

Quoted from DemocraticVoiceOfReason

The Catholic Church does not teach that you can't go to heaven if you aren't baptized.  It hasn't taught
that in at least 45 years ... and even then it was actually a misinterpretation by some of ACTUAL
church teaching.

Many folks who were not Catholic have attended Catholic schools - elementary, high school, colleges and
graduate level universities.   They received quality educations and were NOT harmed by attending.

"You're a bad mommy!"    .....    "because you left daddy and you married someone else.   The teacher said that's wrong."

"Daddy, did you know you are bad.  the teacher told us it's wrong for a man to be with another man."

What can an impressionable young child think?    If the parents are not Catholic, their religion may accept divorce and remarriage, or gay marriage/parenting.

"Mommy, the teacher said when we get communion we are eating body and drinking blood"   And mommy says, "no, it symbolizes the body and blood but it's not really body and blood."   "But mommy!   yes yes, the teacher said transsub,....uh, uh, transstation, something, oh mommy drinking blood, EWWW."


And DV, would you want a school forcing your child to wear a burqua and reciting prayers in a mosque during the school day?


Once again, YOU speak as though all people have the same beliefs as Catholics even if they have no religion, and justify that as a valid reason for attending Catholic school in order to avoid the failing public schools.  

You need to learn that not all people believe as we do and children may not understand as we do.  And it's gets more confusing if they hear one thing in school and something else at home.  

Some families can handle the differences between their own beliefs, others cannot.  So where do those children go?

But to address a change in property tax vs state tax for paying for education.  Since you're not a taxpayer, obviously you don't know that the state already pays for education.  When you go to the store to buy a TV, does it matter whether you take money out of the pocket on the left side of your pants or whether you take it out of the right side of your pants?    Some years ago the Schenectady school district put a bond issue to the voters to build a swimming pool and all the fancy arts stuff, cost $20 million dollars.  The school district said "it won't cost the local taxpayers anything because 82% of it is paid by the state."   Perhaps you don't grasp the stupidity in that statement.  It's tax money out of the local taxpayers regardless of whether they pay taxes to the local government or to the state government.   Now, someone might say that it's spread out among all the population in the state.  However, when the state was making all this money available, schools around the state were running to put in multi-million dollar swimming pools!   So, it's not just one $10 million dollar pool spread among all state taxpayers, it's many many many $10 million dollar pools in many many many school districts.  Then comes the added teaching staff to teach swimming, the travel for competitions, the added insurance, the maintenance, cleaning, upkeep, etc.   And you wanna know what I think I read recently, the pool in Schenectady is closed to the population of Schenectady---no more open swimming hours anymore.

So your reasoning about state money vs local money is not valid.  THe teachers will be the same, the buildings will be the same, the books will be the same, the buses will be the same, the students will be the same.  Same problems, failing schools.

So, what you are essentially sayiing is that since most people in Schenectady cannot afford tuition at Catholic or private schools, those parents should not be allowed any other choice.....it's the rotten public school and that is the only choice.   Force the kids to suffer, get beat up, not learn, drop out and join the welfare ranks, right?

Looks like the previous poster failed to take his-her meds again.    

When my daughter was born, she was not allowed to be Baptized because her father and I were not married in a church and neither of us have been Confirmed.  I have tried almost every church in Albany and Schenectady and everywhere in between.  For it to happen, we, as parents, would have to become members of said church and go through all sorts of classes.  We were both Catholics but not recognized because we dont belong to any church.  My mother had to go through a lot to get me Baptized because it was her second marriage and my father is not Catholic.  He is Protestant.  My daughter is now old enough to make her own decisions and she personally stated she would not get Baptized because if they didnt want her before, they most certainly wouldnt want her now.  Thats pretty sad when you come to think of it.  And for this very reason, there are some Catholic schools in Schenectady that refused her to attend.  I have tried to get her into one because I didnt want to send her to a city school.  But there wasnt much of a choice.  All of her grandparents were willing to put the money together to send her but we were still refused.  I have paperwork that proves all of that.  I hope when she becomes an adult, she will understand the point of religion and rejection in the same sentence.  

Quoted from Gemini

When my daughter was born, she was not allowed to be Baptized because her father and I were not married in a church and neither of us have been Confirmed.  I have tried almost every church in Albany and Schenectady and everywhere in between.  For it to happen, we, as parents, would have to become members of said church and go through all sorts of classes.  We were both Catholics but not recognized because we dont belong to any church.  My mother had to go through a lot to get me Baptized because it was her second marriage and my father is not Catholic.  He is Protestant.  My daughter is now old enough to make her own decisions and she personally stated she would not get Baptized because if they didnt want her before, they most certainly wouldnt want her now.  Thats pretty sad when you come to think of it.  And for this very reason, there are some Catholic schools in Schenectady that refused her to attend.  I have tried to get her into one because I didnt want to send her to a city school.  But there wasnt much of a choice.  All of her grandparents were willing to put the money together to send her but we were still refused.  I have paperwork that proves all of that.  I hope when she becomes an adult, she will understand the point of religion and rejection in the same sentence.  

There is NO Catholic school in the diocese that would refuse a child entry just because the child is
NOT Catholic.   There must be a lot more to your story that you aren't telling.
As for the Sacrament of Baptism  ... it is a serious Sacrament .. if the parents are not practicing Catholics ,,
then what is the motive for Baptism ???  Is it just so that the relatives will throw a Christening party ???
The comment about being "not recognized" because you don't belong to a specific church is the one that
makes your story suspect.   It is quite easy to register in a parish --- just fill out a simple form .. about
the size of an index card ....  no cost  ... just fill out the form and start attending Mass weekly.  

Quoted from DemocraticVoiceOfReason

There is NO Catholic school in the diocese that would refuse a child entry just because the child is
NOT Catholic.   There must be a lot more to your story that you aren't telling.
As for the Sacrament of Baptism  ... it is a serious Sacrament .. if the parents are not practicing Catholics ,,
then what is the motive for Baptism ???  Is it just so that the relatives will throw a Christening party ???
The comment about being "not recognized" because you don't belong to a specific church is the one that
makes your story suspect.   It is quite easy to register in a parish --- just fill out a simple form .. about
the size of an index card ....  no cost  ... just fill out the form and start attending Mass weekly.  

As much as I more often disagree with DV, I lean toward agreeing with most of what he said here.  Friends of my sister-in-law (friends were never Catholic and weren't even practicing in their own branch of Christianity), had asked my sister-in-law to ask the priest in her parish if he would baptize their child.  She told them they would have to make such a request themselves.  She told us later she suspected her friends only wanted to have the photos of the ceremony, the fancy gown, and the party afterwards.

Just finding exerpts from two local parish websites looking for parishoners to help people with Baptism preparation can give you an understanding of what it really means and the commitment required.  

Baptism Companions
Walk with new parents as they bring their young ones up in the Catholic faith. Be there as a support, prayerful companion, and mentor. Parents who have already had their children baptized are encouraged to participate in this vital program. Questions, comments, or interest, email: stlukere@nycap.rr.com

And from another parish:
Baptismal Preparation: This ministry seeks to prepare parents of newborns for the sacrament of Baptism as well as to support them as the essential community through which God's love is gradually made real in the life of the child


But that all said, fewer Catholic schools (due to fewer people being able to afford it) results in limited availability.  Usually parishes give first preference to children of their own parishoners, then to children of other parishes in the city, then to all others.

Getting a benefit requires a commitment first, and rightfully so.     The days of low tuition are gone.  Most schools are exclusively lay teachers and while they don't get paid near what public school teachers make, naturally they do need to be fairly compensated given the education required.  And thus tuition is out of the reach of the vast majority n Schenectady.  And thus, parents are stuck with having their kids in failing, dangerous schools, and thus, alternatives are needed.

I don't know of any Catholic school in the diocese that is so full  -- that it won't take any more students.
Saint John the Evangelist kept its enrollment period open into late September hoping to register more
students.

Quoted from DemocraticVoiceOfReason

First - the Diocese of Albany....

Fifth - Some scholarships offered are full scholarships and some cover a portion of the cost .. every little
bit helps.

There was a flyer in the Gazette today which touted the "huge" figure of $150,000 in financial assistance to BG students.  WOW    With 300 some odd students, that's a paltry $500 on the average.

DV, What is the definition of "some?"      I challenge you to provide any proof of these full scholarships you claim.

I have the proof here to prove otherwise.

http://www.nd-bg.org/financial-aid

Now, I challenge you, DV, to explain HOW a typical Schenectady city family with two children, with the typical income of $30,000 can pay $10,000, a whopping one third of their income in tuition????????   The tution there is OVER $6,000 per year, no reduction for multiple children

If you have reading comprehension abilities, and if you have any arithmetic ability, then, please read that these programs are for THREE years.  Uh, DV, NDBG is Grades 6 to 12, which is HOW MANY YEARS???????    HOW MANY, DV???????????   hUH???????    That is SEVEN YEARS, so for four out of the seven the family has to pay FULL TUITION.

Now, explain HOW a Schenectady family is supposed to pay the property and school taxes of Susie Savages' millionaire political cronies, and pay the taxes on their own homes (or the high rents because of high taxes) AND pay at least $5,000 per year per child?????????

Not being an independent, reponsible adult, obviously you have no understanding of what it's like to have a household budget and try to figure how you are going to pay the mortgage, the utility bills, the food, the clothes, the medical, the car payment, the property taxes, the school taxes on your own house, then the property and school taxes on the properties of the tax exempt millionaires, and then pay $5,000 per child for tuition.

There cannot be a one size fits all solution. BGND took in 79 new students this year which is great. We still need a charter school option for all County students. Eric Elys said that the Schenectady Charter was not "up to his standards"-What a joke. He's gone and so should all opponents to school competition.

     Many students {of all faiths or no faith}want to try something different and not just in the bottom of the barrel Schenectady District. Charter Schools have longer days, less summer vacation, uniforms and cost much less per student. I agree that we should have one Superintendent per County like Florida but that will happen when pigs fly. The head of the Charter School movement for Schenectady County lives in Albany County. A Charter School that stressed fundamentals and not "the arts" would have mass appeal. They don't need a pool, new astroturf, new walls, where kids have to hide to eat lunch in peace. The current system is a total failure and with President Obama supporting Charters they are coming here. We should work together on this "for the kids".

Schenectady has to do something of value for these kids. Charter schools have to show academic achievement for all their students, the teachers union doesn't have to be involved, teachers performance is directly related to the students scoring on standardized test and the concentration is on academics rather than pensions for administrators.

Schenectady hasn't been successful in running a High School. Make a Charter High School where students HAVE to succeed.

Just say NO to charter schools -- they are not accountable to the taxpayers and spend taxpayer dollars.

Quoted from DemocraticVoiceOfReason

Just say NO to charter schools -- they are not accountable to the taxpayers and spend taxpayer dollars.

Ah, brainwashing by the pension padding teachers, scheduled to get a whopping HUGE raise this year.


Listen DV, see the UNDISUPUTABLE, UNDENIABLE FACTS.  


Those facts are that as spending on Schenecxtady city schools has increased, the rate of graduation has gone down.  As the spending has increased, the percent of kids that can read and write has gone down.  Oh, kids can excel at singing,coloring hair, swimming, and playing basketball, but they can't read and write.

The facts are that the more tax money thrown into Schenectady schools, the fewer kids become self supporting responsible adults.

The facts are that most residents of Schenectady cannot afford private schools.

So, what is YOUR solution?    Are you the dictator that dicatates that all children are ordered to go to the government school where most likely they will fail, that all children must be put through the bullying that goes on (positive proof of that  - look at the kids who committed suicide), and the violence?

Since I have proven to you the FACTS--that scholarships and financial aid will provide only a small pittance--and since the FACTS are that Schenectady's families--MOST of whom have total household incomes of only $30,000 and therefore absolutely positively cannot afford to pay $5,000 a year in tuition, tell us, tell us DV, are you saying that parents must be denied a choice in education for their children?

Are you saying that only the well-heeled families have the right to choose their children's education and anyone who is of only modest means must send their children to substandards schools?