Welcome, Guest.
Please login or register.
CHEAP Food
Rotterdam NY...the people's voice    Rotterdam's Virtual Internet Community     Chit Chat About Anything  ›  CHEAP Food Moderators: Admin
Users Browsing Forum
Googlebot and 82 Guests

CHEAP Food  This thread currently has 2,468 views. |
5 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 » Recommend Thread
Libertarian4life
August 31, 2013, 12:10pm Report to Moderator

Hero Member
Posts
7,356
Reputation
50.00%
Reputation Score
+12 / -12
Time Online
119 days 21 hours 10 minutes
Quoted from joebxr


Here's an interesting read about Wally world
http://www.fastcompany.com/47593/wal-mart-you-dont-know


That really is an interesting article. Walmart is capitalism pure and simple. They have no loyalty to any community or  vendor. They have a clear mission statement. They aren't tricking people. People know buying from Wal Mart and not supporting local businesses will end up with bad results. They just accept that there will only be one store in the future for all retail goods. The underlying problem is that all US products are more expensive to produce and ship, than overseas items.

Similarly the US market for solar panels is being gutted by the Chinese who are flooding the market with much cheaper products.

I don't know the structure of Chinese businesses, but I do know the structure of US businesses. The US businesses have stockholders-a-plenty. These stockholders often more than double the price of what their products can be sold for. They funnel vast amounts of money out of the production to retail flow. Corporations rarely pay any sales taxes, pay very little income tax and are favored over people by the government. As patents on products end, these corporations must now compete on even ground with outsiders, but due to the entitled stockholders, previously supported by government patent protections, they are no longer able to sustain themselves.

The government interference in the free market, offering exclusivity and along with it, artificially high prices, seems like a deal, because it allows investors who produce nothing at all, but suck all the profits out of every product produced, but actually they are the inevitable weakest link in the system. They will use the businesses and extract the money for as long as they can, then dump them and move on to the next suckers.

Then the government gets lobbied, by these same lobs, then sets up import fees and tariffs to favor US producers, only adding to the already out of balance system that should be free market driven from the start.

The biggest problem today is all the US businesses have been picked clean to the bone and new businesses aren't replacing them, because the current structure of favoritism marketing doesn't allow unfavored people to enter the marketplace. This is why the US has turned from a manufacturing mecca, to a service oriented society, whereby more and more are performing services for people, instead of manufacturing products. Even the great and powerful General Electric Company is shifting from production of goods to services, like price gouging via GE Moneybank credit services.

Now the stockholders scramble to buy up ownership of service related businesses to replace the manufacturing industry that they gutted.

Bottom line, Wal Mart is not the villain here. The government through use of their friends and family protection racket, have led the country down a death spiral that is fast approaching disaster.

Let's look at one example of government interference. Alcohol. Beer and liquor. Here in New York the State Liquor Authority over sees the operation. They control the distribution through government protected licensed agents only, who charge 2 to 5 times the actual market value for alcohol. A local tavern must by from the distributor at prices far greater than from the corner liquor store or from importers. So then bars start adding illegally purchased alcohol to try to stay in business. The government responds with enforcement agencies. All adding more and more costs creeping up the prices along the way until the businesses become unsustainable and close. Closed up bars are everywhere. Free market bars would be thriving.

Free market businesses of all kinds would be thriving.

Again, don't demonize Wal Mart. They didn't make the rules.

Government protectionism is the villain.



Logged
Private Message Reply: 45 - 66
joebxr
August 31, 2013, 12:45pm Report to Moderator

Hero Member
Posts
6,667
Reputation
70.00%
Reputation Score
+14 / -6
Time Online
276 days 6 hours 18 minutes
Quoted from CICERO
History

Ruby Robinson, Inc. was started in 1966, by Rubin Robinson. When Rubin retired, his son, Gary Robinson, took over the company. George Melshenker, Scott Weber, and Jeff Nianick worked for Gary for over twenty years before purchasing Ruby Robinson, Inc. from him in 1991. The company has grown from a thirty million dollar company in 1991, to a 300 million dollar company today, including all of our affiliates that were created after 1991 (Produce Alliance, LLC, On A Roll Trucking, Inc. and Sweet Mama Produce, LLC). We grow and supply a full line of fresh produce to national and regional retail grocery chains, foodservice operators, master distributors, terminal markets, and specialty markets. With the help of our Salinas and Atlanta offices selling California mixed vegetables, our commodity base has increased from what was once only potatoes and onions, to nearly every fresh produce item.We are still one of the largest single buyers of Idaho potatoes in the country. We have buying offices in Buffalo Grove, IL, Suwanee, GA, Salinas, CA, Lancaster, PA, Springhill, FL, and Longmeadow, MA. Even in today’s difficult economy we continue to grow as we have over the past forty years, mixing in some of the brightest minds in the business..
http://rubyrobinson.com/history.html

Also, there is something that is called a change of ownership, where a Walmart may use a third party warehouse(3PL) or broker, and the buyer who owns the product may sell the product while its rolling across country, or while stored in the 3rd party warehouse.  Much of the produce bought and sold is done while the truck rolling down the highway.  Walmart may use a broker who may have bought a load of apples for Walmart coming out of Washington St. and sell it to Price Chopper when that truck is in Kansas.

Point of clarification: Ruby Robinson is also a grower.


Point of clarification, GROWER is in their History page but their logo specifically says distributor and so does their home page that I quoted...so that's what I provided. Don't know what to tell you, except maybe grower is "history" of the company and not current activity.

Very familiar with 3pl...negotiated/manage 2 of them for our company.  They may not be all the same, but in our case, I negotiate their rates of service, negotiate prices of product they manage and who manufacturer is. I maintain control of the sources and the 3pl manages logistics for us.

In the case of Walmart, I still don't believe they buy anything with intent to remarket to other companies, as someone has provided as FACT....nothing to prove it yet.  It would be interesting if they did, however. Would be interesting to see who it is uses them as a source of supply.  If a BROKER sells it to someone else, that is not Walmart remarketing....it is the Broker.  Unless Walmart specifically tells the broker they don't want the product, I would not think the broker would make that decision on his own.....or he might not be a broker for Walmart too much longer.


JUST BECAUSE SISSY SAYS SO DOESN'T MAKE IT SO...BUT HE THINKS IT DOES!!!!!  
JUST BECAUSE MC1 SAYS SO DOESN'T MAKE IT SO!!!!!  
Logged
Private Message Reply: 46 - 66
CICERO
August 31, 2013, 3:12pm Report to Moderator

Hero Member
Posts
18,232
Reputation
68.00%
Reputation Score
+17 / -8
Time Online
702 days 15 hours 7 minutes
Quoted from joebxr


In the case of Walmart, I still don't believe they buy anything with intent to remarket to other companies, as someone has provided as FACT....nothing to prove it yet.  It would be interesting if they did, however. Would be interesting to see who it is uses them as a source of supply.  If a BROKER sells it to someone else, that is not Walmart remarketing....it is the Broker.  Unless Walmart specifically tells the broker they don't want the product, I would not think the broker would make that decision on his own.....or he might not be a broker for Walmart too much longer.


From what I've read about Walmart's purchasing of produce, my understanding is that they purchase direct from growers.  I find it hard to believe they don't have a way of reselling the growers commodities when they are over inventory, unless they totally screw the grower and let it rot in the fields.  I'd imagine they either have a wholesale sister company or dedicated broker that moves produce they are unable to receive in.  But on the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if they screwed their growers and let it rot in the fields.

In either case, the point being.  No matter what market you go to for produce, almost all of it comes from the same growers and distributors.  Potatoes owned by Walmat at one moment, may be bought by Price Chopper, who handles the transaction is the question.  You are looking for the market that gets it to retail the freshest, stored at the right temp, and best presentation.


Logged Offline
Private Message Reply: 47 - 66
joebxr
August 31, 2013, 3:30pm Report to Moderator

Hero Member
Posts
6,667
Reputation
70.00%
Reputation Score
+14 / -6
Time Online
276 days 6 hours 18 minutes
Quoted from CICERO


From what I've read about Walmart's purchasing of produce, my understanding is that they purchase direct from growers.  I find it hard to believe they don't have a way of reselling the growers commodities when they are over inventory, unless they totally screw the grower and let it rot in the fields.  I'd imagine they either have a wholesale sister company or dedicated broker that moves produce they are unable to receive in.  But on the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if they screwed their growers and let it rot in the fields.

In either case, the point being.  No matter what market you go to for produce, almost all of it comes from the same growers and distributors.  Potatoes owned by Walmat at one moment, may be bought by Price Chopper, who handles the transaction is the question.  You are looking for the market that gets it to retail the freshest, stored at the right temp, and best presentation.


You make a point and answer it too.
Wal-Mart contracts direct with growers. They buy what they want and grower needs to manage leftover or cancellations.
Doubtful that Wal-Mart contracts for entire produce field, so grower sells off remainder best they can to whom they can.
Wal-Mart is big enough to demand what they want, so if they did contract for entire crop and decide not to take it,
the grower is on the hook for the rest, at a loss  if he cannot find a buyer.
PC and others buy from growers, many of them the same.
All looking for best deal to offer lowest prices with highest margins.

POINT BEING...still nothing to support that Walmart is a remarketer!!!!!!!

PS - Wal-Mart acts as their own 3PL in the US best I can determine.


JUST BECAUSE SISSY SAYS SO DOESN'T MAKE IT SO...BUT HE THINKS IT DOES!!!!!  
JUST BECAUSE MC1 SAYS SO DOESN'T MAKE IT SO!!!!!  
Logged
Private Message Reply: 48 - 66
senders
August 31, 2013, 4:52pm Report to Moderator
Hero Member
Posts
29,348
Reputation
70.97%
Reputation Score
+22 / -9
Time Online
1574 days 2 hours 22 minutes
Quoted Text
Like it or not, Monsanto’s genetically modified sweet corn will soon be arriving on grocery store shelves of the world’s largest retailer, Walmart Stores, Inc., and will not be labeled as such. Despite an onslaught of consumer pressure, the company confirmed late last week with the Chicago Tribune that it has no objection to selling the new crop of Monsanto’s genetically modified (GE) sweet corn.

Other retailers, including the grocery chains Safeway and Kroger, have not responded on the issue, however Whole Foods, Trader Joes and General Mills have all vowed to not carry or use the GE sweet corn. As the country’s largest grocery retailer, Walmart sells $129 billion worth of food a year, giving it unmatched power in shaping the food supply chain.

NationofChange is a 501(c)3 nonprofit funded directly by our readers. Please make a small donation to support our work.

The GE sweet corn is the first consumer product developed by Monsanto that will go straight from the farm to the consumer’s plate, rather than first being processed into animal feed, sugars, oils, fibers and other ingredients found in a wide variety of conventional food. It is engineered to be resistant to Monsanto’s Roundup herbicide, the active ingredient of which is glyphosate. The product is also designed to produce a Bt toxin that will kill insects that feed on the plant. Monsanto’s new sweet corn is being harvested in the Midwest, Northwest, Southeast and Texas.

“After closely looking at both sides of the debate and collaborating with a number of respected food safety experts, we see no scientifically validated safety reasons to implement restrictions on this product,” Walmart officials told the Tribune.

However, there has been growing concern over the increasing prevalence of insect resistance to Bt crops. Earlier this year, a group of prominent entomologists sent a letter to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) urging caution in the agency’s approach to Bt crops. Additionally, in April researchers at Portland State University found that GE corn modified to express Bt negatively impacts beneficial soil life. Their results reveal a decreased presence of beneficial mycorrhizal fungi, which are important for nutrient and water uptake, in the roots of Bt corn when compared to non-Bt corn. Experts have recently warned EPA that “refugees” of non-GE crops should be increased due to the growing threat of insect resistance to Bt corn.

Furthermore, GE crops present a unique risk to organic growers. Wind-pollinated and bee-pollinated crops, such as corn and alfalfa, have higher risks of cross pollination between GE crops and unmodified varieties. Pollen from GE crops can potentially drift and wreak havoc on both the surrounding ecosystem and for organic and non-GE farms. If organic farmers’ crops become polluted with GE pollen, they may be subject to loss of their organic certification and financial losses. Unfortunately, the burden to protect against genetic drift falls on organic farmers and conventional farmers who do not use GE products.

Labeling GE products is a crucial way to identify products containing GE ingredients in an effort to sway consumer demand. The European Union, Japan, Australia, Brazil, Russia and China, require labeling for GE foods. Earlier this year, the German corporation BASF announced that it would stop developing genetically engineered products targeting the European market, in part due to low consumer demand. Given that 93 percent of Americans support mandatory labeling of genetically engineered (GE) foods, Beyond Pesticides believes that we can have the same impact here as in Europe. Enough signatures have been collected to put on the California ballot Prop 37—Genetically Engineered Foods. Mandatory Labeling. Initiative Statute—to require labeling of food produced with GE ingredients, and the industry is now fighting back with a well-funded campaign campaign. More information on the campaign for PROP 37 can be found at the California Right-to-Know website.

However, the only sure-fire way you can avoid the genetically modified food is to buy and support organic. Genetically modified crops are not permitted in organic food production. Researchers are continuing to discover the environmental and health benefits of eating and growing organic food.

Reposted with permission from EcoWatch.org


...you are a product of your environment, your environment is a product of your priorities, your priorities are a product of you......

The replacement of morality and conscience with law produces a deadly paradox.


STOP BEING GOOD DEMOCRATS---STOP BEING GOOD REPUBLICANS--START BEING GOOD AMERICANS

Logged Offline
Private Message Reply: 49 - 66
Box A Rox
August 31, 2013, 4:59pm Report to Moderator

Hero Member
Posts
25,926
Reputation
58.62%
Reputation Score
+17 / -12
Time Online
514 days 11 hours 54 minutes
Our Haniford sells local produce from local farms (along with conventional produce).
  They have one section where all the produce on those shelves is from local farms.   At the
store entrance there is a sign telling you which local farms supplied the produce.  



The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral
philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.

John Kenneth Galbraith

Logged Offline
Private Message Reply: 50 - 66
Box A Rox
August 31, 2013, 5:01pm Report to Moderator

Hero Member
Posts
25,926
Reputation
58.62%
Reputation Score
+17 / -12
Time Online
514 days 11 hours 54 minutes
So Unsafe Even Farmers Won't Eat Them

On the subject of potatoes,  Most large producers of potatoes (Maine, Idaho Etc) grow little else but
potatoes.  When the potato plant is first planted as eyes, they are very susceptible to rot, especially
if the conditions are damp and cold.  Most large producers treat seed potatoes with a fungicide
( Fludioxonil).  This and many similar fungicides work well but don't degrade in the soil.  The result is
soil that is so full of fungicide that it can be found in most potatoes sold in supermarkets.
The problem is so bad that many producers will plant one separate field of potatoes for their own use
with out using fungicide.  

If you're buying potatoes, and especially if you like to eat the skins of a baked potato... you'd be much
better off if you buy organic potatoes.

Quoted Text
CONVENTIONALLY GROWN (NOT ORGANIC) POTATOES
The Expert: Jeffrey Moyer, chair of the National Organic Standards Board.
The Reason: Herbicides and pesticides may not be sprayed directly on root vegetables
(since they’re underground), but they absorb the chemicals through the soil and water.
Because potatoes are considered the nation’s most popular vegetable, producing a
healthy crop is essential to keep up with demand. In order to maintain their health, the
article exposes the scary fact that “they’re treated with fungicides during the growing
season, then sprayed with herbicides to kill off the fibrous vines before harvesting.
After they’re dug up, the potatoes are treated yet again to prevent them from sprouting.”
But here’s the scary thing, Moyer says that he’s talked to potato growers “who say
point-blank they would never eat the potatoes they sell. They have separate plots
where they grow potatoes for themselves without all the chemicals.”
The Solution: — Only buy organic potatoes.


7 Foods So Unsafe Even Farmers Won’t Eat Them
http://healthfreedoms.org/2011/01/20/7-foods-so-unsafe-even-farmers-won%E2%80%99t-eat-them/


The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral
philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.

John Kenneth Galbraith

Logged Offline
Private Message Reply: 51 - 66
Box A Rox
August 31, 2013, 5:01pm Report to Moderator

Hero Member
Posts
25,926
Reputation
58.62%
Reputation Score
+17 / -12
Time Online
514 days 11 hours 54 minutes
So Unsafe Even Farmers Won't Eat Them

On the subject of potatoes,  Most large producers of potatoes (Maine, Idaho Etc) grow little else but
potatoes.  When the potato plant is first planted as eyes, they are very susceptible to rot, especially
if the conditions are damp and cold.  Most large producers treat seed potatoes with a fungicide
( Fludioxonil).  This and many similar fungicides work well but don't degrade in the soil.  The result is
soil that is so full of fungicide that it can be found in most potatoes sold in supermarkets.
The problem is so bad that many producers will plant one separate field of potatoes for their own use
with out using fungicide.  

If you're buying potatoes, and especially if you like to eat the skins of a baked potato... you'd be much
better off if you buy organic potatoes.

Quoted Text
CONVENTIONALLY GROWN (NOT ORGANIC) POTATOES
The Expert: Jeffrey Moyer, chair of the National Organic Standards Board.
The Reason: Herbicides and pesticides may not be sprayed directly on root vegetables
(since they’re underground), but they absorb the chemicals through the soil and water.
Because potatoes are considered the nation’s most popular vegetable, producing a
healthy crop is essential to keep up with demand. In order to maintain their health, the
article exposes the scary fact that “they’re treated with fungicides during the growing
season, then sprayed with herbicides to kill off the fibrous vines before harvesting.
After they’re dug up, the potatoes are treated yet again to prevent them from sprouting.”
But here’s the scary thing, Moyer says that he’s talked to potato growers “who say
point-blank they would never eat the potatoes they sell. They have separate plots
where they grow potatoes for themselves without all the chemicals.”
The Solution: — Only buy organic potatoes.


7 Foods So Unsafe Even Farmers Won’t Eat Them
http://healthfreedoms.org/2011/01/20/7-foods-so-unsafe-even-farmers-won%E2%80%99t-eat-them/


The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral
philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.

John Kenneth Galbraith

Logged Offline
Private Message Reply: 52 - 66
CICERO
August 31, 2013, 7:28pm Report to Moderator

Hero Member
Posts
18,232
Reputation
68.00%
Reputation Score
+17 / -8
Time Online
702 days 15 hours 7 minutes
Potatoes are also treated with sprout inhibitors to lengthen the time they can sell them.  If you see discoloration around the eyes of the potato, they were likely treated, and the potatoes are old.  You will most likely see these in packed potatoes.  Less of a chance in bulk potatoes.


Logged Offline
Private Message Reply: 53 - 66
DemocraticVoiceOfReason
September 1, 2013, 6:51pm Report to Moderator

Hero Member
Posts
12,321
Reputation
20.83%
Reputation Score
+10 / -38
Time Online
151 days 7 hours 5 minutes
All the local supermarkets attempt to purchase some portion of their produce and vegetables from local sources.  Shop-Rite lists list the local farms including Shaul's from which it purchases produce and vegetables.

It is not unusual that Wal-Mart or ANY OTHER large retailer would sell product while on the truck to other retailers.  May Department Stores (which used to own Filene's, Lord & Taylor, Kaufmann's, just to name a few) sold products from its distribution center and,even, from its stores to other retailers including Boscov's.  In fact, the actual merchandise in any its stores (Filene's, Lord& Taylor, etc.) was technically "owned" by one corporate entity - not the actual store - and even the buildings were technically "owned" by another corporate entity all under the ownership of May Department Stores (which was actually a holding company for all the various corporate entities under it).

As for Wal-Mart's involvement with the community, I know first-hand that they have donated very generously to a number of local causes within Schenectady County.  Personally, I don't believe that Wal-Mart is any better or worse of a neighbor than some locally based multiple-store retailers or in any other category (how it treats workers, quality of products, etc.).


George Amedore & Christian Klueg for NYS Senate 2016
Pete Vroman for State Assembly 2016[/size][/color]

"For this is what America is all about. It is the uncrossed desert and the unclimbed ridge. It is the star that is not reached and the harvest that is sleeping in the unplowed ground."
Lyndon Baines Johnson
Logged
Private Message Reply: 54 - 66
Box A Rox
September 1, 2013, 6:57pm Report to Moderator

Hero Member
Posts
25,926
Reputation
58.62%
Reputation Score
+17 / -12
Time Online
514 days 11 hours 54 minutes
Every WalMart SuperCenter Costs American Taxpayers
$1,000,000.00 per year!


Quoted Text
May 30, 2013
WASHINGTON, DC – The price of Wal-Mart’s low wages and benefits at just one Wal-Mart
store not only costs families in lost income and economic security, but it also may cost
taxpayers about one million dollars in higher usage of public-assistance programs by
Wal-Mart employees and their dependents, according to a report released today by the
Democratic staff of the U.S. House Committee on Education and the Workforce.

While up-to-date data on Wal-Mart’s wage and employment practices are not always
readily available, new demographic data released by Wisconsin’s Medicaid program
provided the needed information to uncover the scope of the taxpayer subsidization of
Wal-Mart. The report finds that a single 300-employee Wal-Mart Supercenter in
Wisconsin may cost taxpayers anywhere from $904,542 to nearly $1.75 million per
year, or about $5,815 per employee. Wisconsin has 100 Wal-Mart stores, 75 that are
Wal-Mart Supercenters.

“Wal-Mart is the nation’s largest private-sector employer, yet they pay such low wages
that many of its workers are unable to provide their families with the necessities of life.
The labor policies of Wal-Mart, and those of companies that emulate its low-road approach,
end up leaving  taxpayers holding the bag,”


The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral
philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.

John Kenneth Galbraith

Logged Offline
Private Message Reply: 55 - 66
senders
September 2, 2013, 7:36am Report to Moderator
Hero Member
Posts
29,348
Reputation
70.97%
Reputation Score
+22 / -9
Time Online
1574 days 2 hours 22 minutes
WALMART IS JUST PLAIN DISGUSTING....as are the garage sale $1 stores.....america is going 3rd world....and fast....that makes
the tip of the pyramid that much more narrower and the base that much wider.....

SPEND LESS LIVE BETTER....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


...you are a product of your environment, your environment is a product of your priorities, your priorities are a product of you......

The replacement of morality and conscience with law produces a deadly paradox.


STOP BEING GOOD DEMOCRATS---STOP BEING GOOD REPUBLICANS--START BEING GOOD AMERICANS

Logged Offline
Private Message Reply: 56 - 66
Patches
September 2, 2013, 8:19am Report to Moderator
Hero Member
Posts
4,839
Reputation
63.16%
Reputation Score
+12 / -7
Time Online
40 days 11 hours 18 minutes



TMI...be thankful you have food on the table....and YOU PAID FOR IT>>>.
Logged
Private Message Reply: 57 - 66
Box A Rox
September 2, 2013, 8:22am Report to Moderator

Hero Member
Posts
25,926
Reputation
58.62%
Reputation Score
+17 / -12
Time Online
514 days 11 hours 54 minutes
Like everything that we buy, we need to assess value and price.  
If you are starving, you might eat substandard food.  With any discretionary spending, you can
opt for a better quality or more variety of food.  

IMO, the best place to buy quality food isn't a store that advertises PRICE above all else.


The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral
philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.

John Kenneth Galbraith

Logged Offline
Private Message Reply: 58 - 66
rpforpres
September 2, 2013, 8:26am Report to Moderator

Hero Member
Posts
3,891
Reputation
89.47%
Reputation Score
+17 / -2
Time Online
113 days 4 hours 29 minutes




I'm thinking Box and Henry should get together and BBQ, and invite all of us of course  

I've used both seasonings the steak rub and the grill mates, Box I throw a roast in the crock pot with some potatoes, carrots and onions and add the spices it's extremely good.

As for Walmart, I do go there sometimes but their "fresh" meat I would never buy again unless they have improved. Bought steaks once and they were so bright red (an unusual red) and when I cooked them they were extremely salty. Must be the tenderizer or something.

Really have to get myself over to one of the small meat markets, I think Sal's is the one with the stuffed porkchops I used to get.
Logged Offline
Private Message Reply: 59 - 66
5 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 » Recommend Thread
|


Thread Rating
There is currently no rating for this thread