Good observation Box...America has corrected and improved on A LOT of Nazi experiments.
Cic... do you just wake up in the morning and find that your fingers are on the keyboard and you've posted a bunch of nonsense in your sleep??? ( As if Abortion in America started with Cicero's "Nazi experiments". )
Abortion was around in the time of Christ and before... yet Christ never mentioned it or preached against it. It wasn't a subject he spoke of at all... He wasn't concerned with abortion... yet the Rabid Right rails against the issue shaking their bibles and shooting their guns.
If abortion was a non issue for Christ... The Rabid Right sure distorts his word with their extremism.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
Prehistory to 5th century Abortion was a common practice. Evidence suggests that late-term abortions were performed in a number of cultures. In Greece, the Stoics believed the fetus to be plantlike in nature, and not an animal until the moment of birth, when it finally breathed air. They therefore found abortion morally acceptable.[64][65] The Greek playwright Aristophanes noted the abortifacient property of pennyroyal in 421 BC, through a humorous reference in his comedy, Peace.[41]
Cyrenian coin with an image of silphium. The ancient Greeks relied upon the herb silphium as an abortifacient and contraceptive. The plant, as the chief export of Cyrene, was driven to extinction, but it is suggested that it might have possessed the same abortive properties as some of its closest extant relatives in the Apiaceae family. Silphium was so central to the Cyrenian economy that most of its coins were embossed with an image of the plant.[66] In Rome, abortion was forbidden and sometimes severely punished by the jurisprudence (Digest 47.11.14, 48.8.8, 48.19.39, 48.8.3.2., 48.19.38.5) and nevertheless practiced "with little or no sense of shame."[67] There were also opposing voices, most notably Hippocrates of Cos in Greece and the Roman Emperor Augustus. Aristotle wrote that, "[T]he line between lawful and unlawful abortion will be marked by the fact of having sensation and being alive."[68] In contrast to their pagan environment, Christians generally shunned abortion, drawing upon early Christian writings such as the Didache (c. 150 A.D.), which says: "…do not murder a child by abortion or kill a new-born infant."[69] Saint Augustine believed that abortion of a fetus animatus, a fetus with human limbs and shape, was murder. However, his beliefs on earlier-stage abortion were similar to Aristotle's,[70] though he could neither deny nor affirm whether such unformed fetuses would be resurrected as full people at the time of the second coming.[71] "Now who is there that is not rather disposed to think that unformed abortions perish, like seeds that have never fructified?"[28] "And therefore the following question may be very carefully inquired into and discussed by learned men, though I do not know whether it is in man's power to resolve it: At what time the infant begins to live in the womb: whether life exists in a latent form before it manifests itself in the motions of the living being. To deny that the young who are cut out limb by limb from the womb, lest if they were left there dead the mother should die too, have never been alive, seems too audacious."[72] [edit]5th century to 16th century ""early period" the Church treated abortion of the pre-quickened fetus as anticipated homicide, homicide by intent, or quasi-homicide c. 1115 Leges Henrici Primi treated pre-quickening abortion as a misdemeanour, and post quickening abortion as quasi-homicide, carrying a lesser penalty than homicide 1487– Malleus Maleficarum (The Hammer of Witches), a witch-hunting manual, is published in Germany. It accuses midwives who perform abortions of committing witchcraft.[73] [edit]17th century to present In the mid-to-late 19th century, during the fight for women's suffrage in the U.S., many first-wave feminists, such as Elizabeth Cady Stanton opposed abortion.[74][75] In the newspaper she operated with Susan B. Anthony, The Revolution, an anonymous contributor signing "A" wrote in 1869 about the subject, arguing that instead of merely attempting to pass a law against abortion, the root cause must also be addressed. Simply passing an anti-abortion law would, the writer stated, "be only mowing off the top of the noxious weed, while the root remains. [...] No matter what the motive, love of ease, or a desire to save from suffering the unborn innocent, the woman is awfully guilty who commits the deed. It will burden her conscience in life, it will burden her soul in death; But oh! thrice guilty is he who drove her to the desperation which impelled her to the crime."[75][76][77][78] Around 1970, during second-wave feminism, abortion and reproductive rights were unifying issues among various women's rights groups in Canada, the United States, the Netherlands, Britain, Norway, France, Germany, and Italy.[79] [edit]Legal: History of abortion law
See also: Timeline of reproductive rights legislation, Abortion law, and History of Abortion Law Debate The earliest mentions of abortion in our written texts reflect the interests of class and caste. Fines are listed in the Code of Hammurabi, ca. 1760 BC, for the crime of causing a miscarriage through assault, with the amount varying according to the social rank of the woman.[80][81] The Vedic and smrti laws of India reflect a concern with preserving the male seed of the three upper castes; and the religious courts imposed various penances for the woman or excommunication for a priest who provided an abortion.[82] While abortion is not mentioned in the Greek and Roman laws, an inference can be made from the laws mandating infanticide for children born deformed, suggesting a state interest in the "fitness" of its citizens.[83] In 211 AD, at the intersection of the reigns of Septimius Severus and Caracalla, abortion was outlawed for a period of time to protect the rights of the father, with the punishment being temporary exile.[64] In the West, the matter was dealt with in Ecclesiastical courts, which treated abortion of an "unformed fetus" (prior to quickening) as quasi-homicide, imposing a lesser penance than for full homicide. Starting with Leges Henrici Primi, around 1115, abortion was treated as a misdeamenor prior to "quickening", accruing a penalty of 3 years' penance, or as a "quasi homicide", with ten years' penance, after quickening.[84] With the notable exception of Henry Bracton,[85] most writers on the subject held to this view, and the penalties for homicide were not applied to the crime of abortion. William Staunford first formulated the born alive rule in accordance with the definition of Murder in English law, which states that the victim be "a reasonable creature in rerum natura," language which dates back to the Leges Henrici Primi. William Blackstone's commentaries are usually consulted for the modern formulation of this rule. The only evidence of the death penalty being mandated for abortion in the ancient laws is found in Assyrian Law, in the Code of Assura, c. 1075 BCE;[86] and this is only imposed on a woman who procures an abortion against her husband's wishes. [edit]Effects of legislation on population Abortion has been banned or restricted throughout history in countries around the world. Multiple scholars have noticed a that in many cases, this has caused women to seek dangerous, illegal abortions underground or inspired trips abroad for "reproductive tourism".[87][88][89] Half of the world's current deaths due to unsafe abortions occur in Asia.[87] [edit]China See also: Abortion in China In the early 1950s, the Chinese government made abortion illegal, with punishments for those who received or performed illegal abortions written into the law.[90] These restrictions were seen as the government's way of emphasizing the importance of population growth.[90] As the decade went on, however, the laws were relaxed with the intent of reducing the number of deaths and life-long injuries women sustained due to illegal abortions as well as serving as a form of population control when used in conjunction with birth control.[90] In the early 1980s, the state implemented a form of family planning which used abortion as a "back-up method"; since then, there have been fears regarding sex-selective abortion.[90] [edit]India See also: Abortion in India India enforced the Indian Penal Code from 1860 to 1971, criminalizing abortion and punishing both the practitioners and the women who sought out the procedure.[89] As a result, countless women died in an attempt to obtain illegal abortions from unqualified midwives and "doctors".[89] Abortion was made legal under specific circumstances in 1971, but as scholar S. Chandrasekhar notes, lower class women still find themselves at a greater risk of injury or death as a result of a botched abortion.[89] [edit]Japan See also: Abortion in Japan Japan is known today worldwide for its acceptance of abortion.[87][91] It is estimated that two-thirds of Japanese women have an abortion by age forty, partially due to former government restrictions on contraceptive pills on 'public hygiene grounds'.[87] The Eugenics Protection Law of 1948 made abortion on demand legal up to twenty-two weeks' gestation so long as the woman's health was endangered; in 1949, this law was extended to consider the risk the child's birth would place on a woman's economic welfare.[87][91] Originally, each case would have to be approved by a local eugenics council, but this law was removed from the law in 1952, making the decision a private one between a woman and her physician.[87][91] In 1964, the creation of the conservative right-wing nationalist political lobbying group called Seicho-no-Ie brought about a strong opposition to the abortion laws.[87] This campaign reached its peak strength in the early 1980s, but ultimately failed in 1983.[87] [edit]Romania See also: Abortion in Romania In 1957, Romania legalized abortion, but in 1966, after a decline in the national birthrate, Nicolae Ceauşescu approved Decree 770, which criminalized abortion and encouraged childbirth. As a result of this decree, women were forced to seek out illegal methods of abortion that caused the deaths of over 9,000 women and left countless unwanted children abandoned in orphanages. Abortion remained illegal until 1989, when the decree was overturned.[92] [edit]Thailand There was intense public debate throughout the 1980s and 1990s over legal abortion reform.[87] These debates portrayed abortion as un-Buddhist and anti-religious; abortion opponents ultimately labeled it as a form of Western corruption that was inherently anti-Thai and threatened the integrity of the nation.[87] Despite this, in 2006, abortions became legal in cases of rape or foetal impairment.[87] Mental health also became a factor in determining the legality of an abortion procedure.[87] The strict regulations involved in qualifying for a legal abortion, however, cause approximately 300,000 women a year to seek illegal avenues according to scholar Andrea Whittaker, with the poorest undergoing the most dangerous of procedures.[87]
...you are a product of your environment, your environment is a product of your priorities, your priorities are a product of you......
The replacement of morality and conscience with law produces a deadly paradox.
STOP BEING GOOD DEMOCRATS---STOP BEING GOOD REPUBLICANS--START BEING GOOD AMERICANS
abortion is WAAAAAAAAAY OLDER THAN the Nazi's.......since the beginning of time......
no food = no baby
now it's called
career or baby
which either way doesn't matter......
just because one is capable of having babies doesn't mean they should
just because one is incapable of having babies doesn't mean they should
you see Box....women are not the at home cows of history....you seem to be OK with the choice of abortion for convenience and/or rape/keep others off of welfare....however, you seem to be OK with choice of having children only to have the state raise them(not just feed them)....
as if baby daddy doesn't exist....
just curious as to your opinion of the baby daddy and his rights?
Anyone have a Senders to English translation?
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
Cic... do you just wake up in the morning and find that your fingers are on the keyboard and you've posted a bunch of nonsense in your sleep??? ( As if Abortion in America started with Cicero's "Nazi experiments". )
Abortion was around in the time of Christ and before... yet Christ never mentioned it or preached against it. It wasn't a subject he spoke of at all... He wasn't concerned with abortion... yet the Rabid Right rails against the issue shaking their bibles and shooting their guns.
If abortion was a non issue for Christ... The Rabid Right sure distorts his word with their extremism.
Christ was wise in the form a man....he kept his mouth shut.....he didn't need to be a card carrying ovary....
culture of life and culture of death always exist simultaneously.....it IS about choice....
we've come a long way baby.....
pregnancies and their circumstances don't happen in a vacuum.....
...you are a product of your environment, your environment is a product of your priorities, your priorities are a product of you......
The replacement of morality and conscience with law produces a deadly paradox.
STOP BEING GOOD DEMOCRATS---STOP BEING GOOD REPUBLICANS--START BEING GOOD AMERICANS
Cic... do you just wake up in the morning and find that your fingers are on the keyboard and you've posted a bunch of nonsense in your sleep??? ( As if Abortion in America started with Cicero's "Nazi experiments". )
Abortion was around in the time of Christ and before... yet Christ never mentioned it or preached against it. It wasn't a subject he spoke of at all... He wasn't concerned with abortion... yet the Rabid Right rails against the issue shaking their bibles and shooting their guns.
If abortion was a non issue for Christ... The Rabid Right sure distorts his word with their extremism.
I agree abortion has been around for a very long time. So has murder, so has rape, so has theft...
The difference with modern abortion is, the STATE has been able to use abortion as a tool of the State. The state promotes it through public education, and indirectly funds abortions by funding abortion clinics in certain socioeconomically disadvantaged neighborhoods. All meant to alter the demographics and population of the state.
Of course, the act of abortion is not a Nazi experiment, but what is, is the state's use of abortion to control population and demographic. Propagandizing the uneducated and poor to actually desire abortion and convince them it is freedom and choice. The dirty little secret is, they are keeping certain demographics from becoming politically and economically competitive and from ever becoming a threat to the elite that own the land and resources and control the country.(aka the 1%)
So, keep on killing your unborn…It is liberating, it is your right, it is freedom. lol
Abortion was around in the time of Christ and before... yet Christ never mentioned it or preached against it. It wasn't a subject he spoke of at all... He wasn't concerned with abortion... yet the Rabid Right rails against the issue shaking their bibles and shooting their guns. If abortion was a non issue for Christ... The Rabid Right sure distorts his word with their extremism.
I agree abortion has been around for a very long time. So has murder, so has rape, so has theft...
You avoided the question... Your answer: "So has murder, so has rape, so has theft..." Christ strongly condemned all three... but never spoke a word about abortion. The Rabid Right (and you) consider abortion to equal murder... but that conclusion is yours, not Christs.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
When baby daddy is carrying the baby--he has rights. And if baby daddy gives baby mama a disease or Aids, can we have him put in jail for jeopardizing baby mama's life? Stop the abortion talk--with regard to healthcare--paying for birth control and abortion should be included. After all--you want to pay for Viagara! War on Women as I see it.
When baby daddy is carrying the baby--he has rights. And if baby daddy gives baby mama a disease or Aids, can we have him put in jail for jeopardizing baby mama's life? Stop the abortion talk--with regard to healthcare--paying for birth control and abortion should be included. After all--you want to pay for Viagara! War on Women as I see it.
only war if accepted as war.....stand straight....don't take offense....TAKE CHARGE.....
we have all been well 'talk show trained'....men are from mars and women are from venus......
there is no war.....
all day the TV is covered with tampon/dish soap/cleaning/birth control commercials and dumb a$$ talk shows that continually talk about how the women do this, do that blah blah blah....STOP DOING IT!!!
evening time brings about viagra/beer/sports commercials.....
there's no war just an acceptance of what hollywood thinks is the 'norm'......we eat the sh!t with mustard.....
again...let me ask where baby daddy is??????
...you are a product of your environment, your environment is a product of your priorities, your priorities are a product of you......
The replacement of morality and conscience with law produces a deadly paradox.
STOP BEING GOOD DEMOCRATS---STOP BEING GOOD REPUBLICANS--START BEING GOOD AMERICANS
. After all--you want to pay for Viagara! War on Women as I see it.
Who's "you" that you talk about? I don't want you or anybody else paying for viagra.
Of course you see a "war on women". You're just another mindless obamabot parroting slogans without thinking. Thinking is too hard. Just like box, you only need charts and graphs from thnkprogress, political cartoons, and campaign slogans to form your opinions.
only war if accepted as war.....stand straight....don't take offense....TAKE CHARGE..... we have all been well 'talk show trained'....men are from mars and women are from venus...... there is no war..... all day the TV is covered with tampon/dish soap/cleaning/birth control commercials and dumb a$$ talk shows that continually talk about how the women do this, do that blah blah blah....STOP DOING IT!!! evening time brings about viagra/beer/sports commercials..... there's no war just an acceptance of what hollywood thinks is the 'norm'......we eat the sh!t with mustard..... again...let me ask where baby daddy is??????
Note to Senders.
I am the last one to complain about grammar, but why don't you post with complete sentences? You post phrases that are often unconnected and don't seem to make a lot of sense to me. Perhaps if you posted your thoughts in complete sentences, some of us could understand your meaning instead of trying to make sense of what sometimes appears to be random thoughts.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
You avoided the question... Your answer: "So has murder, so has rape, so has theft..." Christ strongly condemned all three... but never spoke a word about abortion. The Rabid Right (and you) consider abortion to equal murder... but that conclusion is yours, not Christs.
I didn't avoid the question...How can I have a conversation with a person that thinks he even knows what and if there was a latin word for an intentional abortion? Christ didn't talk about open heart surgery, he didn't talk about sex reassignment surgery, and he didn't talk about invetro fertilization. Mostly because they didn't exist or have words for them.
Maybe there is no reference to partial birth abortion in biblical times because it wasn't in the language.
Regardless of any of this, I don't need ancient biblical writings to understand that killing a viable fetus is immoral and wrong...Like I've said, I have children, modern technology and the 3D ultrasound machine give you an image of inside the womb. It doesn't look like chicken yolk or a chicken or a horse or anything else besides a human being. I don't need Christ or anybody else to tell me what your God SCIENCE and technology have been able to show me.
I didn't avoid the question...How can I have a conversation with a person that thinks he even knows what and if there was a latin word for an intentional abortion? Christ didn't talk about open heart surgery, he didn't talk about sex reassignment surgery, and he didn't talk about invetro fertilization. Mostly because they didn't exist or have words for them. Maybe there is no reference to partial birth abortion in biblical times because it wasn't in the language.
Cic is ducking the question once again. If you don't care about the religious aspect of abortion, that's fine. Just don't use it as if it mattered to you.
Back to my original question... "Christ didn't talk about open heart surgery, sex reassignment surgery, or invetro fertilization." they didn't exist in his time. But abortion did exist in his time and before him. Christ didn't discuss the issue of abortion, but many who call themselves Christians claim that abortion is against their religion. If abortion is ok with Christ, it's ok with me.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
Cic is ducking the question once again. If you don't care about the religious aspect of abortion, that's fine. Just don't use it as if it mattered to you.
Back to my original question... "Christ didn't talk about open heart surgery, sex reassignment surgery, or invetro fertilization." they didn't exist in his time. But abortion did exist in his time and before him. Christ didn't discuss the issue of abortion, but many who call themselves Christians claim that abortion is against their religion. If abortion is ok with Christ, it's ok with me.
you use it as if it mattered to you....do you have your card ready for verification?
...you are a product of your environment, your environment is a product of your priorities, your priorities are a product of you......
The replacement of morality and conscience with law produces a deadly paradox.
STOP BEING GOOD DEMOCRATS---STOP BEING GOOD REPUBLICANS--START BEING GOOD AMERICANS
Cic is ducking the question once again. If you don't care about the religious aspect of abortion, that's fine.Just don't use it as if it mattered to you.
When have I used Christ? I think I've always argued this on SCIENCE and the scientific definition of life and also using examples of how premature births as early as the second trimester (21 Weeks) survived. So I'm not really "ducking the question", since I never really argue this in the context of religion. YOU are the one who always try to blame the "religious right" for forcing their religious values onto women. I'm not part of the religious right. My whole argument is, if you are going to kill an unborn fetus, don't equate it to cracking open a chicken egg for breakfast. Modern science and technology have shown a very clear picture of the inside of the womb during development, as well as the empirical evidence of viability outside the womb as early as 21 weeks. A doctor sucking the brain out of a 21 week fetus while still inside the womb or sucking the brain out of a prematurely delivered fetus doesn’t change the end result of a dead baby. But in America, the first example is a service the second is a crime.
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