Again, what are you forced to 'tolerate' with the repeal of DADT?
Most Americans shop, work, go to church, eat, swim, etc, with gay and lesbian Americans... what exactly will you be forced to "tolerate"?
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
Let me ask you this one boxy.....do americans, any americans....have the right, by law, to free speech? Do americans, any americans have the right to express their dislike or their intolerance on any issue? I'd guess the answer to that question is 'yes'.
Some laws FORCE tolerance on issues that some people find intolerable. But it appears that 'free speech' also protects these same people so they can express their intolerance! It's works both ways!
example................ So there is a law protecting the pro-death people. But there is also a 'free speech' law that protects the pro-life people for voicing their intolerance. So there is a law protecting homosexuals. But there is also a 'free speech' law that protects anti-homosexual people from voicing their intolerance.
Again it works both ways! One voice can not negate the other............correct?
When the INSANE are running the ASYLUM In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule. -- Friedrich Nietzsche
“How fortunate for those in power that people never think.” Adolph Hitler
I have no problem with free speech. Unless it breaks the law, I am an advocate of free speech... This message board is a good example of free speech in action. I disagree with much of the idiocy posted here, but I support the idiots right to post it!
My question to Bumble & MT... you posted about being forced to "tolerating the intolerable"...
Exactly what about the repeal of DADT will you have to 'tolerate'?
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
Why does a person’s personal sexual preference need to be disclosed? Is there a box on the form asking your sexual preference when you enlist in the service? It amazes me that we actually have a policy that tells people that THEY DON'T HAVE TO ANNOUNCE THEY ARE GAY/STRAIGHT/BI/OTHER. I don't go around announcing any of my personal choices - sexual or otherwise.
This is just more gay activism. Announcing they are gay so they can throw the discrimination card when they don't get promotions over straight people.
I ask you BOX - Do you believe it is necessary to announce sexual preferences, and how knowing a person’s sexual orientation is pertinent in any situation.
Until DADT, the US military would not accept you if you were openly gay or lesbian. If you were discovered to be gay, you would be discharged from service.
During the Vietnam war, you could be exempt from the draft if you stated in writing, often from a psychiatrist or clergy, that you were gay. (Nicknamed "Big Casino" in the day)
The DADT policy, briefly: ~ restricting the United States military from efforts to discover or reveal closeted gay, lesbian, and bisexual service members or applicants, while barring those that are openly gay, lesbian, or bisexual from military service. ~
Lifting DADT would allow openly gay and lesbians Americans to serve in the military with no restrictions. In other words, they would be treated like every one else, without regard to sexual preference.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
Gay barracks? Military faces thorny questions Possible repeal of 'don't ask, don't tell' policy raises practical challenges By James Dao
updated 8:36 a.m. ET, Sat., May 29, 2010 For opponents of the ban against homosexuals serving openly in the military, the steps by Congress this week to repeal the policy, known as “don’t ask, don’t tell,” were a major victory.
But now they are girding for what may be an equally difficult task: the transition to a force where straight and openly gay servicemen and women live, work and fight alongside one other.
Some homosexuals in the military say they are worried about how that process will work and whether they will be treated differently if they publicly acknowledge their sexual orientation..............>>>>..................>>>>...................http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37411679/ns/politics-the_new_york_times/
The military spends an estimated $22,000 to $43,000 per person to replace those discharged under DADT. That's millions of OUR TAX dollars that the US could put to better purposes.
Since 1994, the military’s “Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy has resulted in the discharge of more than 13,000 military personnel across the services, including approximately 800 with skills deemed “mission critical,” such as pilots, combat engineers, and linguists.
At a time when our military is having problems filling it's ranks, eliminating DADT could help the enlistment shortage.
The military of Canada, The United Kingdom, Germany and Israel are modern, high tech, forces much like our own. Our missions and training are similar, with The UK serving along side the US in Iraq. The inclusion of gay and lesbian forces in their military has not diminished their effectiveness and should not effect ours.
Box - If you are going to use finance as a reason, you are baking up the wrong tree. If/When homosexuals are allowed to openly serve, are their partners allowed benefits? Shopping, Dental, Medical ect? Because when they do get the benefits(and it will be when not if) the amount of extra money the government will have to spend on them will far out weigh the money spent on there training.
I will also say to you that those that have been removed from the military for being homosexual 8 time out of 10 wanted out.
IMO our military is not ready for DADT to go away. There has been no pre ground work done. Can you billet them together or do you have to seperate them like you do males and females? There are many issues that have not been resolved that need to be BEFORE DADT goes away. If they do not, then it will be put on the lowest level commands to figure it out on their own. That is only going to cause major issues.
Giants Fan, The cost of gay & lesbian partners benefits will be exactly the same as the cost of straight partners benefits... except possibly the gay & lesbian partners will seldom need maternity benefits, so the cost might even be cheaper.
All the fears you mention about DADT are the same problems expressed by many Britons when the British military allowed gay & lesbians in 2000.
From the NY Times May21,2007: "Since the British military began allowing homosexuals to serve in the armed forces in 2000, none of its fears — about harassment, discord, blackmail, bullying or an erosion of unit cohesion or military effectiveness — have come to pass, according to the Ministry of Defense, current and former members of the services and academics specializing in the military. The biggest news about the policy, they say, is that there is no news. It has for the most part become a non-issue."
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
GiantsFan is correct, it's always the unforeseen consequences that create the most serious problems when feel good laws are passed and when only one side of the story is reviewed.
Giants Fan, The cost of gay & lesbian partners benefits will be exactly the same as the cost of straight partners benefits... except possibly the gay & lesbian partners will seldom need maternity benefits, so the cost might even be cheaper.
All the fears you mention about DADT are the same problems expressed by many Britons when the British military allowed gay & lesbians in 2000.
From the NY Times May21,2007: "Since the British military began allowing homosexuals to serve in the armed forces in 2000, none of its fears — about harassment, discord, blackmail, bullying or an erosion of unit cohesion or military effectiveness — have come to pass, according to the Ministry of Defense, current and former members of the services and academics specializing in the military. The biggest news about the policy, they say, is that there is no news. It has for the most part become a non-issue."
First, you can't compare our military to the Brits. The have no where near the forces or requirements we do in our military. They also have different social norms then we do.
As for the partners of gay's and lesbians having the same draw on benefits, you are missing the point and side stepping your initial financial assesment. Our budget is projected out years ahead.(may not seem that way but it is) Infusing that much more cost(millions not thousands) for partner benefits(not to mention strain on are already inadequit military health care) is going to make a huge mess. I gaurantee the government will make cuts to divert those costs. Probably in the form of cutting some programs from military families. Again prior planning is needed. Not just to suit the needs of some Political Weenie. I am not saying DADT can't or won't go away, I am saying our military is not ready Financially, Tactically or Ethically.
Cost: A 2006 University of California Blue Ribbon Commission report determined that the total cost of "Don’t Ask Don’t Tell" between Fiscal Years 1994 and 2003, from training personnel who are subsequently discharged, was at least $363.8 million. (CBS NEWS) http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/02/22/national/main4818708.shtml
The acceptance of Gays in American society in general is changing especially among younger Americans. The May25,2010 Gallup poll found acceptance of Gay relations is now above 50% in America, with the 18-49 age acceptance at 62% for men and 59% for women. As with black integration of the military and women in the military, the predictions of problems in the USA and other countries were largely unfounded. (Gallup) http://www.gallup.com/poll/135764/Americans-Acceptance-Gay-Relations-Crosses-Threshold.aspx
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
363.8 million over 12 years for the training that was provided of those terminated for homosexuality. Basic Training, AIT, cold weather, hot weather, financial, sensativity, safety, ect ect.....What training are we lumping into this #?
And how many more homosexuals exist in the military that have not been kicked out? I have 15 years in the military right now and have not seen one case of someone being kicked out for it. So I am going to guess that there are atleast 20 homosexuals serving for each one kicked out. And I dare say that is a small number. So if half of them have a partner who gets Benefits what do you think the cost per year for that will be? I am willing to bet more than 363.8 million over 12 years. Actually, I would bet it would be in the billions over 12 years.
Acceptance of homosexuality among young Americans is over 50%. Thats great. So are their accident rates and ability to want to get paid without actually doing work. So what.
One more time. Our military is not ready. If it is force fed we will adapt and over come. But, at what expense to the Country? That is the question.
I also notice none of those polls asked military people how they felt.
Results are based on telephone interviews with 1,029 national adults, aged 18 and older, conducted May 3-6, 2010. For results based on the total sample of national adults, one can say with 95% confidence that the maximum margin of sampling error is ±4 percentage points.
The Pentagon has discharged over 12,500 service members since the law was implemented in 1994, including 800 “mission critical” troops such as Arabic linguists, medics, pilots and intelligence analysts... Many of these troops are not replaceable at any cost, so the mission suffers with out these specialists.
A Dec, 2008 Military Times poll asked active service men & women what they would do if DADT was repealed, allowing openly gay and lesbian service. 71 % said they would continue to serve if the policy was overturned. However nearly 10% said they would not re-enlist or extend their service.
David Segal, a military sociologist at the University at Maryland, drew a parallel between the current debate and earlier discussions about changing the composition of the force, from racial integration in the 1940s and 1950s to gender integration in the 1970s. “That’s a smaller number of career officers than who in the 1970s said they would leave the service if women were admitted to West Point,” Segal said. “They were expressing a strongly held attitude. But when women were admitted to West Point, there was not anything near that kind of exodus from the service.”
Similar debates have surfaced in other countries that recently lifted in the ban, including Canada, the United Kingdom, Australia and Israel, Segal said.
“None of the dire consequences that were expected occurred,” Segal said. “My sense is, and this is just impressionistic, it was more peaceful than the gender integration of the military.”
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith
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